#5 Michelle Neal: Pushing Limits, Driving Change and Building Loyalty

In this episode, I sit down with Michelle Neal, a trailblazing executive in financial services with a proven track record in leading global markets and infrastructure businesses. With expertise spanning multiple asset classes, regulatory landscapes, and a focus on digitizing complex, scalable infrastructures, Michelle brings unparalleled insights to the table. Having held senior roles, currently as CEO of Fnality International, as well as at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, BNY Mellon, and RBC Capital Markets, she shares her remarkable journey through the industry. Tune in for her hard-earned lessons, innovative strategies, and invaluable advice—whether you're charting your career path or refining your leadership approach- this one’s for you! 

Key Takeaways from This Episode:

• Michelle's personal journey: building a strong work ethic, drive and commitment from an early age. 
• What drew Michelle to Fnality: its mission driven values that resonate deeply with her. 
• Practical strategies for driving innovation within large organizations. 
• Key traits Michelle seeks in top talent: the qualities that set individuals apart. 
• The vital role of clear and consistent communication in effective leadership. 
• Insights on navigating unexpected challenges during times of crisis. 

Memorable Quotes:

"Things that are complex can in some ways make you look clever, but genuine mastery is making complicated things simple."

"People can be super smart, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have common sense or good judgment."

"When it comes to the why, you need to be the CRO – Chief Reinforcement Officer. People rarely absorb a message the first time—they need to hear through multiple channels, in multiple ways."

"Not every crises will give you the luxury of time, but when it does take the time to think and be strategic rather than just react, in order to stem your losses quickly."

"Declaring failure is counter to human nature, but it is necessary to support innovation and growth. You don't have room for sustained failures, but you do probably have room to ideate, fail, try again and course correct."

"It’s important to love what you do, but that doesn't mean you have to love what you do for every task or every minute, because sometimes work is very rewarding and sometimes work is just work. "

"Develop good habits, learn from mistakes and get better at incrementally improving."

"I don't have all the answers. I think I'm only midway through the journey. I am trying to have a mindset to have no regrets."

If you want to learn more practical lessons and real-world leadership insights from remarkable founder CEOs, you can ⁠⁠⁠order Georgie's book Stratospheric CEOs out now.

Show Links

Website - https://www.georgiedickins.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiedickins

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@GeorgieDickins-q7x

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Georgie Dickens, host of Stratospheric Leaders, the podcast where I get to have inspired conversations with extraordinary leaders from across capital markets. Join me to hear their game-changing strategies, the personal stories and powerful soundlights behind their stratospheric success. Every episode packed with wisdom, inside, and real-world lessons, the stuff they simply don't teach you in business school. If you want to elevate your game and most importantly, elevate those around you, this podcast is for you. I was delighted to welcome Michelle Neal to an episode of Stratospheric Leaders and what an enjoyable conversation we had. Michelle has had an incredibly distinguished career in capital markets spanning over 20 years, holding senior roles at many institutions, including RBC, BNY, Deutsche, Namura, and RBS. And in these roles, she has been responsible for leading and transforming businesses. And this has been across different geographies, different regulatory domains, as well as asset classes. Most recently, she was head of Markets Group and a member of the Executive Committee at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Now she has taken the helm as CEO of Finality International. In our conversation, we hear about her beginnings. It all started stuffing handbags, then there was a job at Dunkin' Donuts. And it is a reminder that even the most distinguished careers often start with humble roots. Now, what stands out about Michelle is her, what stands out for me is her work ethic, her boundless ambition and her relentless drive. And this is a leader who remains steady through times of extreme change. She's pushing boundaries and she earns the unwavering loyalty of those she leads. And perhaps most powerfully, she has found a career that she genuinely loves, which is why I think she has the most amount of stamina across people that I know. This episode is packed with practical real-world leadership lessons, ones that you don't need an MBA for, no financial outlay, and it covers everything from managing volatility to sustaining resilience. And it is a must-listen for anyone serious about leading themselves and others with impact. Enjoy the conversation. I know you're going to take away many insights. Michelle, I am delighted to welcome you to Stratospheric Leaders. And this is the podcast where I get to have conversations with leaders and visionaries, the people who are shaping capital markets in meaningful ways. And you're about to, well, you're about to step into a new role as CEO of Finality, having just left the Fed, where you are head of the markets group and a member of the EC. And we will be hearing about that new role shortly. But before we do that, I want to rewind several decades to see like where did it all start? And I know you said your first um professional job was at FEDESA, but before that, what was your first ever job? Well, um, so my dad um was um an American immigrant, um, well, an Austrian immigrant who came to America. Um, so I am um partly first generation American, and um I used to watch him um, you know, trying to be um an entrepreneur in America, having kind of come here um as a young man. And I started, um, believe it or not, stuffing handbags for him at his factory at the age of 12. It was a sort of relatively small um outfit, um, but he manufactured um handbags for the fashion industry. Um, and I used to go into work with him on uh on vacations and summers and um uh stuff um handbags and speak to all the people in the factory, the ladies who did stitching and people who did gluing and people who did metal work. And um, and I just obviously sort of found it so interesting and was always in awe of how much people loved my dad. Um, that really kind of gave me the taste for independence quite early. Um, and I kind of then wanted to branch out a little bit on my own. So um I got a job at Dunkin' Donuts. Um, and uh believe it or not, I was up at 5 a.m. almost every weekend for a few years on Saturday and Sunday. Um, I wasn't big into sports. Um, so I also worked some kind of days after school. Um my parents or my grandparents kind of drove me there at ungodly hours to support my strong work ethic. Um this allowed me to buy my first car. Um, and I guess because just kind of really established that sense of early ambition, like how how much could I do? How much could I kind of plan for in the future? Um I traded in my apron for a role as a bank teller, actually, um at a credit union. And I remember, I'll I remember the interview very, very specifically. Um, the branch manager of this uh credit union that's local to where I lived. Um her name was um Sandy, I can't remember her last name, but um, she was very, very smart and very, very um kind of well presented. And she said, Why do you want to do this? And I said, Because I really want to acquire as many skills as I can now so that I can offer those to my future employers. And she's like, that's very smart. And she gave me the job. And so I went on to um, you know, basically be a bank teller at the window at the drive-in. Um I had a few um hairy occasions trying to balance my draw. Um, the the rule of thumb was if you actually had an error balancing your drawer and it was like, I don't know, 57.26, then you probably, you know, forgot to give somebody 26 cents or $3 and 26 cents or something. Like you could find an error like that. If you were short, like $100 or $20, then you had some bills that stuck together and that was like impossible to find. Um, so it was fun, but sometimes hairy. Um, and then I actually applied for um a job in the mortgage department um at the at the kind of head office, which was kind of also quite local. Um, and I was a payoff and discharge clerk. So um this was all while I was a student. I was in high school still, so I hadn't graduated high school. Um, and um, you know, that was quite fun, you know, just kind of uh, you know, I one of the things that that sticks with me about that now um is that I was actually discharging these mortgages that were like 16 and 17% interest rates that were kind of stuck or struck in the early 80s. Um, and um, so actually when you kind of parlay that into my kind of three years in a uh in a role as a central banker where um, you know, obviously the the dual mandate is about sort of price stability and inflation and kind of full employment. Um, to think that there was actually a time in my life where people were paying 16 or 17 percent for mortgage rates when we think that sort of four or five, six percent is um extraordinarily high. Um, it's just kind of an interesting kind of tie back kind of to the to the start, to where I kind of came in the end. And there's so many interesting pieces there about the start, but I think what really comes up for me is character, that work ethic, that drive, that determination. You see, you know, all whilst you were doing that at school, independence, and um, and I think it's really interesting because often when we look at at leaders, you you know, when you go back to their first, you know, their first ever job, you learn more about their character, what are their drivers, what are their motivations? And it and it just strikes me that you were a highly motivated, it wasn't your parents, you know, pushing you out to go and get a job. This is something that very much was self-driven. I think so. Yeah, I mean, there was a time, and not that there was anything kind of wrong with it at all, but I remember telling my mom that um I was not gonna go to college, I was going to be a hairdresser and I was gonna go to the local vocational technical school. She was like, okay. I mean, my mom was actually great because she never told me no, but she was like, Yeah, you can do that after after you go to college. So it makes sense. It's I turned out a little bit differently in terms of my actual path. Um, but um, yeah, I think there's something to be learned um from how she kind of handled things like that because you don't actually discourage somebody from what they think they want to do. You kind of you sort of divert them and um sort of see where it turns out from there. And you like to think hopefully they then make the right choices. Yes, indeed. But it's it, I said I I the um, I just think when we look back at you know where it all started, it really then you you can see patterns of behavior, I think, uh, which really I think is gonna is that there are these golden threads that have run through your career. And you've had several prominent roles on the cell side and at the you know, most recently at the Fed. And I'm really curious in terms of what made you decide decide to take on the role at uh finality and and I suppose why now? Um yes, no, thank you for asking that question. And um, maybe before I answer it directly, it might help if I actually just provide a little bit of um context about finality for people who don't know um what it is or what they do and why it's important. So um so finality is actually building an institutional blockchain-based payment system to provide settlement for wholesale capital markets, really kind of in a way that meets the highest regulatory standards. So at its core, um, the innovation of finality is delivering 24 by seven real-time peer-to-peer settlement on-chain with credit characteristics of central bank money. And so, if you think about all of the kind of recent noise going on about digital assets in the US and executive orders related to that, um, you kind of think about well, what's important about what finality is doing and what is important about this sort of central bank-backed kind of underpinning that is fundamental to the platform. And I think maybe a few things. You know, first of all, central bank money, credit quality is critical for wholesale payments, for things like real-time balance sheet optimization and liquidity management, um, reducing multiple types of risk like settlement risk, counterparty risk, replacement risk, um, empowering institutional tokenized asset markets with an institutional grade means of payment on-chain. So, again, all this talk about stable coins, well, they work for retail payments, but they don't work for the quantum of wholesale market payments, um, which kind of really underpin the financial system and these kind of real-time gross settlement systems that kind of are prevalent in all of the sort of um central banks kind of payment rails around the world. Um, so finality is really creating a global network of payment systems. Um, in December 2023, um, the Sterling Finality Payment System commenced operations really as the world's first DLT-based wholesale payment system settling in a digital representation of funds held at the central bank. So they're targeting dollars for the second half of this year and mobilizing efforts around euro and yen. Um, so that's a little bit about finality just for context. But why did I join? So during my time running the markets group at the New York Fed, um, you know, I did I did a lot of different things. The New York Fed is sort of the primary operating business of the Federal Reserve system. Um, and um people don't normally hire me to do a job which is kind of business as usual, like, oh, come in and sit down and kind of crank the handle in the same way that the person before you did to kind of keep the trains running on time. People normally want me to do something hard, like we need to do a transformation related to people, processes, and platforms. And that was really kind of the strategic and initiative-based element of my time at the Fed. But I also obviously had a bird's eye view and and um was able to kind of contribute together with the team and the markets group, um, just around obviously the kind of um, you know, business as usual aspects of uh monetary policy implementation and um, you know, treasury issuance and supporting kind of the needs of other central banks that have uh dollars at the Fed and the different things that they need to do. Um, but I would say that one of the things, you know, when I first joined the Fed, it's like, you know, I'm I'm here to do this really important job and make a contribution to um something that makes the lives of American people and businesses better. Um and um, you know, I I always wanted to do more in the ways of contributing. I've always had busy jobs, a young family, and you know, my time at the Fed was really a way that I could do those things, but in a way which is authentically me, i.e. I'm contributing, I'm contributing where my domain expertise, experience, and kind of motivation really matters and moving things forward. But um, so I I kind of developed this profound sense of mission really, and quite simply I knew that I would go back to the private sector, and that was you know a discussion that um I had with John Williams, who's the CEO of the New York Fed and the vice chairman of the FOMC. Um, you know, we we talked about that, you know, there would be kind of a body of work to execute on, and that I would likely go back to the private sector to continue my career. And maybe I had, you know, one more important thing in me. Um, but um, and so when the finality opportunity came along, I knew it had a really compelling global mission that really kind of ticked all the boxes for me in terms of again where I could take my career next, but where I could also make a contribution. So I believe that finality's mission is very compelling. And I kind of describe it in in a way which is this this once-in-a-generation FMI financial market infrastructure, um, creating the next generation of payment rails for the digital age. So if everything kind of comes together in the right way, you know, finaleity really will be the backbone of an internet of money. And to me, that is like a huge global mission, um, and one that I'm very proud to have been entrusted with. The words that really are coming up for me are uh mission-led, impact, um that contribution that you that you spoke to. You can I can really feel it as you as you speak to the role that you're taking on. And what what most excites you about this this this new seat? Um you know, again, really the opportunity to help move the kind of key foundations of the banking system into a digital age, but in a way which is you know preserving the financial stability that's really important about how um markets work. Um we need to be able to embrace and move forward innovation and um kind of foster a transition of sort of TradFi markets to DeFi markets, but uh I believe that that needs to be done in a way which is within a regulatory framework and perimeter that maintains financial stability. Um, finality does that. Um so I think that that's a kind of a little bit about you know the the kind of construct in which it um has been uh kind of born and intends to operate. Um but you know, the the the product, the platform, um, the the people, the establishment of our local payment system entities and kind of key jurisdictions around the world, the kind of balance of maintaining this kind of network of systems, but in a way which is kind of efficient and optimized so that you know the central banks have the opportunity to kind of supervise their local payment systems, but that we need to be able to also be an aligned and united firm in the way that we face clients and kind of have a seamless experience for kind of operating payments across multiple currencies. So I fundamentally kind of thrive and love kind of simplifying things that are inherently complex and kind of creating sort of scale and um supporting kind of teams and people to be empowered to do their um their best work, really. Um and um and also kind of understanding that anything that's complicated kind of really needs to be delivered in its kind of like most simple interpretation so that it's kind of um understandable, consumable. Um people can kind of feel that they um can sort of trust and understand how to sort of take it forward within their own kind of sphere, um, which is a kind of a lesson I learned, you know, quite a long time ago about um things things that are complex can in some ways make you look clever, but actually the cleverest thing is to be able to make complicated things simple. Yeah, it's it's so true. It's and you speak about people there and uh the team, and you know, no one's an island, you know, we all need people around us. And when you, you know, with the teams that you've worked in, what are the attributes that you look for in your kind of leadership talent? Um I think first of all, good judgment. Good judgment is really underrated. Um, again, people can be super smart, but they don't necessarily have common sense or good judgment. And that's really important when you're sort of trusting and empowering people. Um so I think that's one attribute, but I have some others. Yeah, no, I want to and actually how do you how do you test judgment? I mean, how what is the measure of that? I think it's watching people um you know make decisions about how to solve problems, how to um advance business initiatives, there's an element of um kind of integrity and ethics, there's an element of um kind of good sense and prioritization. So I think it encompasses quite a lot of things actually. Um and it comes from sort of watching people um kind of over a period of time, really. Yeah, and I think it is, as you said, over a period of time, because you see patterns of behavior show up in people. That's right. And okay, so good judgment. So okay, attributes that define good leader, you know, good that that are, I suppose, key attributes that you look for in people. So good judgment, what else comes up? Um, you know, I think a willingness to be mutually accountable to a team with a common goal. Um, you know, obviously collaboration is probably an overused word, but I do think this kind of concept of mutual accountability is really important. Um, it's like kind of people knowing what their role is and keeping their eye on the ball around kind of their responsibilities, but also being willing and able and having the aptitude to kind of pitch in kind of on a broader kind of platform of kind of needs. Um, I think also really importantly um being able to lead their teams to think similarly. Like, how do you make sure that everybody in your sphere of influence sort of understands the strategic narrative that's important to you know the group you're in or the company or the group and the company or their kind of like team, the group and the company. Um, I I've noticed that I've noticed a pattern that over the years, employee engagement kind of surveys and feedback, I mean, there there are kind of lots of themes that kind of come out in those, but one is that's actually very prevalent is really wanting to understand what is kind of the mission, like what are people really um contributing to, um, and how do you understand, help them understand where they're where you're going and how to maintain their own connection to those goals or that mission. Um, because I think when you have that type of engagement, um, it's a key measure of satisfaction for people because they understand like how the work that they're doing kind of contributes to um kind of the overall sort of company objectives or the objectives of the group or kind of whatever level you're measuring that at. And I think that that um that common goal, that and that shared understanding of the mission is so critical. And and I think it's people understanding the why. Yeah, it's it's the you know, why are we driving towards that? And I I I read something recently about the importance of um that common goal. And it said that if you're going on a flight from New York to London and you're one degree off course, you'll end up in Paris. So, you know, it can be hence the importance of clarity. Shared understanding because that one degree of difference we may think, well, that that doesn't matter, but actually, you know, trying to get them from Paris to London is time, it's effort, it's energy. And it is really interesting where um uh leaders, I think they have to be the chief repetition officer, that CRO of you can't just say the goal once, you've got to say it over and over again because people sometimes take time to process or they're kind of multitasking in their heads. So it's it's the importance of that reiteration. This is the goal, this is the mission, this is the why. Um, so ensure that people really kind of get it, that they're invested and that they they they understand what the what's driving that mission. I like to use the word reinforcement rather than repetition, because repetition has maybe a tiny negative connotation, I guess. And oh, you're just kind of kind of keep rabbiting on about this or whatever. Um so I I think about it as reinforcement. Um, but also people do hear things um through different channels, right? So you you have to, you know, particularly if you have like big groups, which obviously I have had in the past, um, you know, quite quite big groups. And I remember people saying, like, well, we don't really hear things very well through email, or like, oh, it's it's not that effectively delivered in a town hall. And sometimes you think, well, what? I are you are you not listening? But you then have to kind of step out of your own self and say, no, no, actually, people do need to hear things through multiple channels and multiple ways and kind of constant reinforcement. Um, and so, you know, it's not something to be annoyed about, it's just kind of human nature, and that's how you kind of reach people by um, you know, this, you know, constant reinforcement through different ways of delivering the message. I'm now going to be changing my CRO from chief repetition officer to chief reinforcement officer. Because to your point, I think there's an energy that, like a negative energy, the repetition that I kind of get my, I think of my children, they're like, here she is, she's kind of nagging me again. Was that reinforcement? Feels like it's it's a good message that I'm underscoring. So I'm going with the CRO. And I think it is important you said about uh whether it's town halls, whether it's emails, to think about what's our vehicle of communication. Because some people are auditory, some people are visual. And we might have written everything down in an email, but people skim read, they can, you know, take a couple of data points and make sense of something in a completely different way. So it is varying those, um, that vehicle of communication. And a leader shared with me recently that he gets um his, like his, I suppose his lieutenants, the people around him, to ask them to repeat back to him. What is your understanding of the shared mission? Because he said sometimes you you all think you're aligned, you all think, you know, you've all understood each other's perspectives, you're all, you know, rowing in the same direction. And then people come out of that, you know, that meeting room and people are going off in you know different ways. So he asked people to repeat back, to be like, right, are we all on this, you know, no mismatch of understanding, we are all totally aligned. And he said, in in asking people to repeat back, that's where he he then can really check in. Yes, they've understood, and we're all agreed, or actually, no, there is some there's some ambiguity we need to cut iron out here. So we've we've looked about we've looked at some of the the um the attributes that uh define leadership talent. And we talked earlier, you know, I mean, you mentioned uh mortgage rates, which were, I think you said 16 or 17%. So I think we can all agree that um things change very significantly over time. And we when we look at the current backdrop, um, the world is moving fast and uh you know it's turbulent times. We live in that VUCA world, which is defined by volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. I'm sure you've led through many crises before. And what have been your, I suppose, guiding principles that have really enabled you to lead through those times and and and thrive? Um so I think you have to keep a cool head and a balanced perspective in a crisis and kind of remember that your role is to serve others and kind of how you and they need to work through those challenges. Um and I think as a leader, you also want to use these things as teaching moments and teach others how to lead in times of you know turbulence and stress. And I've really actually had some big surprises, I have to say, where um, you know, during some particularly well-known crises actually over the last you know, 15, 20 years, um where people I would have expected to expected to be able to really kind of rise to the challenge ended up in like a puddle on the floor. And people that I actually thought might not be my go-to people in a crisis actually are the ones who really rose to the top and had kind of like the guts, the ideas, the kind of um kind of really able to kind of make sense of kind of a situation and how to kind of work through it. Um so um I think that's just a very interesting kind of lesson in kind of how you think about people and what actually um turns out to be the reality in a in a time of stress. Um can I can I pull the head, uh, pull the not pull the head, pull the thread on that one? Um and I think it's a really interesting point because as I I was thinking back to as you were speaking there about people can surprise you and in times of crisis, I think we don't always know how we'll we'll respond ourselves. I think back to the pandemic and where you saw different parts of people's personalities because they were in that survival mode, trying to make sense and trying to make decisions with um with incomplete data. Um you don't want to be part of a contagion in those moments. It is about that balanced perspective. How have you how do you keep a cool head? Is that something that's inherently you? You you know, you can maintain that composure when everything around you is moving so fast, or is there anything, you know, are there strategies you've really had to employ to kind of keep that being collected, being calm, um being that steady, steady ship? You know, I I I think you have to kind of take your personal um kind of fears and concerns and how might going this way or going that way affect me or my career. And I think you have to just think about what is the right thing to do, um, you know, for the situation, for the institution, for the public good, you know, whatever kind of translates into kind of the outcomes you need to keep an eye, a firm eye on, um, and focus on that. And I think if you do that, then actually you will have also done the right thing kind of for yourself and your career and your team at the same time. But I think if you if you actually get muddled up in trying to think about the personal outcomes um with actually the outcomes that are the right ones, um, it will not lead to the right response. Yeah. Um and I think that a really key thing is that in times that are not crises, um you have to lead in a way that makes people want to follow you so that when you actually do get into a crisis, people will unreservedly know that um you have their back, you are an advocate, you're not looking to um kind of protect yourself at the cost of others, and that you're kind of um you're you're gonna lead them out of a situation. Um, so I think some of the things that are important in being able to do that, and the things that are really important to me is that you know, I pride myself on the one hand for having you know a very high standard of integrity, being reliable, optimistic, open, transparent, resilient. Those are my kind of key things that I like to think people would use to describe me. Um, you know, I think on the other hand, I have a good sense of priorities, how to set the pace, how to keep people focused and um helping them to work to think about how do I make progress and why is it important to take ownership and accountability. I think ownership and accountability is something that's missing in a lot of places. Um and you have to really teach people why it's important and how to live that. Um and I think, you know, finally, I I kind of really do care deeply about people. I want to make a difference in the lives of the people that I work with, work for, who work for me. And I think if if you can kind of get all that together and that results in followership, then that combined with your ability to kind of maintain this kind of cool head and sense of balance will kind of see you through any crisis with an army of people who are willing to do what it takes to support the needs of the firm. The word trust comes up for me. It's in it, you know, for followership, it's and and that trust, it trust is earned, isn't it? It's by being consistent, do it saying what you, you know, doing what you say, saying what you'll do, and that built that's built up over time. Um there was a saying I read recently, which is like, you know, you don't want to be scaling Everest and look around like you know, no one's behind you. So it's really important and and and and I said, and it's it's it's through consistency. And and you said at the beginning about, you know, when when it is in times of crisis, and what I wrote down there is, you know, what is the problems I'm solving for? It's it's it's slowing things down, but not going slowly, but it's just not not trying to kind of go at record pace, but like, right, just to slow things down, because I think to slow things down, it's an enabler to go faster, just to be like, right, who the team I need around me, what is the problem we're solving for? What are the actions we need to take, in order that it's thoughtful, it's deliberate, there's that it's it's um it's an intentional plan going forward. Yeah, I mean, I can think of a really good example of exactly that where you sort of slow down in the moment, you know, and it and it and it wouldn't always work in all circumstances, but um if um if people remember the event when um the Swiss Swiss franc DPEG from the Euro, um it it actually um it was a pretty challenging moment in um in in markets, in foreign exchange markets in particular. And um I was I was running a business that had a lot of um kind of credit and intermediation risk in it, and we very quickly had to make some decisions around you know, kind of crystallizing kind of losses to stem further um issues, or to kind of take potentially a longer-term view about who are going to be the winners and the losers in this market um when basically everything kind of was kind of behind us. And so we sort of we took some steps to kind of hedge our risk and then really kind of think about that kind of future landscape and you know, actually went to our board and said, actually, we think rather than kind of closing out these, you know, certain clients and putting them out of business that we should actually take a different approach. And um, and we got support to do that, and it turned out really well. Actually, they prospered, we prospered. Um, we we made a very significant um uh you know PL savings as a result of taking that approach. And um, you know, there was there was definitely risk in heaven inherent in doing that. It might not have worked out, but yeah, we we we did, we stopped and thought about what we could do. Now, not not every situation will give you the luxury of doing that. It was just that this was the type of a situation where we could, and we did, and it kind of worked out. So um I think if you can take the time to kind of think rather than just react, um, you've always got to stem your losses, like pretty much immediately. It's it's but it's about how you do that and kind of what steps you take can actually um result in a very different outcome. It's true. And I you said the word react. And I think there's a difference between a knee-ject reaction and a considered response. You know, the knee-ject reaction's emotional led, it's you know, you're kind of on autopilot, whereas that response is even if it's with taking a beat for like 10 seconds, just to be like, right, what is needed of me in this moment? How do I need to step up as a leader? But it's that, it's that, it's that power in the pause. And and to your point, it's sometimes you don't have the luxury of time, but even if it's a micro uh pause, just to you know, to bring yourself back to center to be like, what are the questions I'm asking myself, you know, asking myself now, in order that you can move with intentionality. And when you were speaking, I had the image of an arrow, which um a bow and arrow, which is sometimes it's the you know, the pulling back, which is kind of just the stepping back that allows you to propel at at pace. And in times of um crisis, chaos, volatility, you know, the world that we, you know, we we are living in turbulent times, and it means that you know, people are we're making decisions sometimes with, well, often with incomplete data, and there will be mistakes, there will be failures, you know, it's part of the it's you know, failures are part of the journey. How and and some people have a people sometimes want to avoid failure, but it's it's like it's it's you can't have successes at every moment along the way, and it's what you learn from those failures. What's your relationship to failure? Um I think I think I think for organizations to be able to benefit from innovation, you have to have a tolerance and a culture around failure, um, and how to support failure and how to it sounds a bit cliche, how to in a way celebrate failure. So I think you know, you learn lessons, you feed it into the learnings, you course correct. And I think as long as the context in a situation of failure is underpinned by you know ethical standards and integrity, of course, um, that there's room for that. Um and so getting people to recognize the importance of declaring failure rather than persisting with a failing or failed initiative, it takes leadership, it takes confidence, um, it takes supporting people that actually making that sort of declaration is a really important skill. Um declaring failure is counter to human nature, but it is necessary to support innovation and grow because you don't have, you don't have, you don't necessarily have room for lots of like sustained failure, but you probably have rooms to kind of ideate and fail and try again and course correct and you know, so I think you have to um kind of teach people that it's okay to say this isn't gonna work, and so we're gonna call it a day or we're gonna pivot. Um, we're constantly horizing scanner, scanning, taking kind of um kind of changes in internal or external circumstances and kind of adjusting, kind of having this kind of like kind of run through the wall at any cost to get to an outcome that might still be failure, but will have cost multiples of what it would have been if you sort of took action when you sort of first recognize the initial signs. Um, I think is um, like I said, I think it's a it's an important skill. It's interesting because I look at my children, they're 14 and 12, and to be fair, they're beginning now to want to avoid failure. But certainly up until probably they were 10 or 11, they were like there's no fear of failure. It's like there's that bounce back ability. It makes me think of a weeble, you know, the the weebles wobble and they don't fall over, they come back to center. It's like, you know what, I failed, I'm just gonna try again. And it's interesting, isn't it? As sometimes we get adults, we want to avoid avoid it at all costs. But to your point, you know, innovation, uh if Edison, who I can't remember, it's uh, you know, there were thousands of attempts to make the light bulb, Dyson with the Hoover, but they didn't see it as failure. They're like, that's that's iterative. That is, you know, the the journey towards creating the product. But we want to, it's it's in, I just I I feel that I see a lot of people wanting to avoid it. And there's with fear, there's an acronym, which is false evidence appearing real. You know, I'm I'm worried, what if it goes wrong? What if I mess up? So that you know, we're we're we're great Oscar-winning story writers. Or fear is feel everything and rise, like feel it, go for it. Um it's Einstein said, you know, making the same mistake twice and expecting a you know different outcome, like that's insanity. So it's it's not that, but it is you you shared earlier about the importance of teaching moments. Like if there's a failure, what can we learn? How will we how will we take this? Course correct, you know, then course correct, but what how can we take this learning going forward? Yep, no, I exactly. It's it's all it's all teaching moments because you have to teach the next generation to be able to, yeah. They'll that like you'll they'll there'll be future crises, there'll be future challenges, and um, and so without modeling the right behavior, yeah, they might not know how to respond. And helping them with resiliency, because I I look at my children, I think I probably sugarcoat them, but they're they're not as resilient as they need to be. And what you know, you need to be resilient in in today's world. And when I think about today's world, the demands, well, the busyness, the intensity, the pressure, the demands are greater than I think they've ever been because you know, those technological advancements are extraordinary, you know, brilliant. And it means we can find ourselves on 24-7. Our stakeholders are typically on 24-7. So it does require stamina, it does require sustainability in the seats. Um how do you how have you created that for yourself? Oh God, I sometimes wonder that too. I mean, I've been uh I've been um all over the world in the past sort of five days, and I actually feel it's Friday, I feel very um quite chipper actually. I was I was awake at 3:30. I knew we were doing this at 7 a.m. So I was like got myself right up and got got ready rather than lying there. Um I don't know. I I think that I think that stamina is actually motivation in disguise. Um when you're motivated, I think your stamina is almost unlimited. Um, but motivation is actually something that comes from within. I don't think that um I don't know, I don't know if it's learned or not. You can learn to do a lot of things, but nobody can teach you to be motivated. I think it's a feeling. I think it's I think it's I think I think you sort of get it by sort of like an osmosis type of effect from others because you see that others that are ambitious and successful are fundamentally motivated and it kind of creates a motivation in you. Um and I so I think I think that stamina to be sustainable can't be like adrenaline fueled because you know that's just fight or flight and you'll peter out at some stage. So um I think it's really sort of I think it's yeah, I think it's it's motivation and and it's kind of loving what you do. Um and that doesn't mean you have to love what you do at every for every task or every minute, um, because sometimes work is very rewarding and sometimes work's just work. Um and you know, you obviously have lots of kind of other competing demands, but if you're if you're fundamentally holistically motivated, then I think that gives you the stamina to have the energy you need to carry you through. Yeah, I it's it's so important to love what you do. And to your point, it's it's not like it's all rainbows and unicorns, and every day it's like, wow, it's amazing, but it's on it's on balance, it's it's finding joy in what you do. And you shared there the importance of you know being around other people who are motivated. I think emotions are contagious, and they do say, you know, we are that we become the um it's the combination of the five people we surround ourselves with. So who we surround ourselves with, you know, that really influences our mood, our behavior, our goals, our ambitions. And so there is something to be really thoughtful around, you know, who we surround ourselves with. Um and what was the other piece that you said there that really struck me? And if it's important, it will come back to me. But I I yeah, I think it's it's is making sure it was that's what it was about. Um we only have like we all have an energy tank, and I think of it as like an energy bank account, and we can love what we do, and it's still those energy, energetic debits are coming out of the of that of that bank account. So it's making sure we put credits in, uh, credits in as well. And also to recognize, I always think of my energy as like um uh a fuel gauge, and to recognize, you know, when is the tank kind of you know going to a quarter to you know uh to nearly empty? Because you don't want to find yourself running on vapor or fumes, which is the adrenaline piece that you mentioned. And yet we can easily find ourselves bumping up against that. So there's something there about self-awareness to recognize, you know, where am I entering that place of diminishing returns? Yeah, for sure. How do you how do you know when you're entering that place? Is it does does your do you see my children are normally my best, they tell me how impatient and uh shouty I become, but how do you know when you're getting into that place? Exactly that. It's so funny that you mentioned that because um I find that when I'm yeah, when I'm when I'm probably um subliminally More worried about something than might appear or whatever. Yeah, I think I think I become the shouty mummy and I hate being that person. So I bet I take it really hard when I when I do that because I feel terrible. But we are human and it does happen from time to time. And even the kids kind of understand that. So they do my my son, one of them said to me the other day, Why have you got so many snakes on your forehead? And I was like, they're just lines. I am growing all gracefully. But that was like, I'm clearly frowning more than I should be. But children are two truth tellers, and we all need truth tellers in our trusted tribe who will give us the unvarnished truth. 100%. And when I think about stamina and sustainability, it does make me think about time. And there are so many, as a leader, there are so many competing uh demands for your time and your attention. And it can be really hard because sometimes the demands of us are outstripped by our capacity. How do you protect your time to focus on the things that matter? I guess that can be measured in a couple of different dimensions. So, you know, tactically, I'm really terrible at saying no. Um, I think if you've ever sort of tried to get time from somebody who's just sort of perpetually unavailable or um not approachable, I don't want to be that person. Um, I want to be supportive, I want to be accessible. Um, you know, sometimes I take on more than I should. Um people try to protect me from myself, um, but I'll say, no, no, no, no, no, no, I want to be accessible. Um, so this could be in a professional or personal context. Um, I never really regret it because I'm always happy when I've spent time with someone that maybe um at first blush I wouldn't have had time to fit in. Um I think, you know, I also feel that I have to make up for not being able to sort of sometimes take the lead in um, I don't know, things at my kids' school or with the PTO. And I think about myself as like wanting to be involved in these things. And so I will like double down, volunteer for something. Then I have to like pull out all the stops to actually deliver. Um, and obviously, of course I do because I have a very um like letting people down is like a total no-no for me. Um, but then I think about oh, how do I I reflect and I think how can I contribute in a way which is authentically me but practical for all involved. Um, and so I do repeat this cycle over and over. So maybe it's one that I'm not really learning. But I would say, like on the flip side, strategically, I'm pretty ruthless about being like focused. So prioritizing protecting the bandwidth of people to kind of get their most important work done. Um, and also to kind of do the same with precious commodities like financial resources, operational resources, whatever they might be. Um, so you know, I I try to sort of protect kind of time and resource in one sense and think I'm reasonably good at it. I think at a personal level, I probably, I probably don't, I probably haven't perfected that yet. I I remember my own uh well, a great friend said to me that um uh no is a choice, yes is a magnitude of commitment. And I was like, damn it, you're right. Like, you know, no is a choice. And I think inherently, I don't know if this speaks to you, but I have this people pleasing. I want to help people, I want to support people. And um, but I was introduced to the concept of being self-issed versus selfish. And self-issed means it's recognizing what do we need to be able to do our jobs and and and not just our jobs, but what do we need for ourselves? And that often, you know, we need to be resourced and we need to be nourished. And if we spread ourselves like peanut butter on toast, you know, really thinly, we can't give from an you know an overflowing cup. So it was about you know recognizing boundaries can be like elastic or they can be more wooden fences, and we, you know, we we it's you know flexing that saying no so it becomes it can flow more naturally off the tongue. So that is um and uh and so time. I think the key piece here is you said the word protect, protect your time. No one's gonna do that for us. That is something that we have to really take agency for. And you said the word priorities as well, because I think it's protecting our time and knowing what matters, because you said, you know, it's about focus, focusing on the things that um, the things that matter. And to and to pivot from you know, prioritization and and time here, you've had, and I I'm gonna, I don't know how I was gonna say several decades, so I don't, but several decades as a leader in the industry. What is one thing no one warned you about? Um I think that it's actually lonelier than you would expect. Um you know, I still think of myself um, you know, as I would have done, you know, 20 years ago, where I had, you know, more peers and colleagues, and I was invited to everything and very socially interactive. Um, and you know, maybe the life of the party sometimes. Um, and I think sometimes in leadership roles, although you consider yourself to be like one of the people, um, they don't necessarily think of you that way. So that obviously is really important in terms of like people are always watching you. So um, so that, you know, how you model behaviors, I think is is obviously really important because people they see everything that you do. Um, but you know, obviously um everybody wants to belong and everybody wants to be to take part and be at the party. Um, so I think, you know, obviously I I have my own personal desire of wanting um to be liked, and um, and so I try to ensure that's kind of goes back to this point about like trying to be available, not intimidating, and um, and it kind of going back to this kind of you know, demonstrating kind of why people want to be led by me. Because I think, you know, you you want people to, you know, think that you're you're decent, but that also like you have the right um kind of decision-making kind of acumen to like make their efforts ultimately be successful, right? Um, so yeah, I mean I think I think it really is about the fact that you know you're just you're you're kind of a little bit on a different plane. Um, and so it's it's trying to it's trying to kind of fit in in a way which is um kind of optimal. Um but yeah, that would be my that would be my my big thing. I I struggle with that a little bit. And you you mentioned the word lonely, loneliness, and I think there's a there's a dissert, there's a difference, isn't there, between being alone and feeling alone, because often as leaders, there's many people around them, there's teams, you know, vast wathes of teams, and and yet it's in that seat it can feel very isolating. Um, and it's it's a seat that has scrutiny. Everyone's has a judgment, and you can be misrepresented or mischaracterized. You say a word in a town hall that someone interprets it in a different way. And and we live in a world now of you know devices that catch everything. So a lot of what we do or say is evergreen. And I I, you know, when I work with leaders now, I think having to maintain that professional distance in it is is is incredibly important. And it's interesting because leaders, there's so much to ask of leaders, you know, be authentic, you know, be your true self, and which, but is this fine balance because yes, it's about showing that relatability, that humanness, but you can't fully take that, you know. If we think about COVID as an example, if you, you know, you as a leader had shown up on town halls emotional and crying, well, then people are gonna, you know, looking, well, this person's supposed to be guiding me. I need to see confidence, calmness, conviction, I need someone to be charting the path. So there's this this fine balance of like be authentic, but you can't be too, you can't be too, you know, too much of your false self because there's a role that you're that you're being asked to do. Yeah, no, I I agree with that. I mean, actually, when I did my last town hall at the at the New York Fed, um, and I was telling people um what an absolute honor it had been to be in the role and to be able to kind of lead their efforts in the time that I've been there. I actually um I did I I did shed a tear or two. Um and uh and that that was quite authentic, if not a little embarrassing. So I think at times um it's okay to be human. And it but that shows you care. That's the passion piece. You should it shows it shows you care. And and you you mentioned you have two children, and I says, what are the lessons you want to gift them? Or what would you what is a lesson you gift your younger self knowing what you know now? Um so I'm definitely not a helicopter sort of type parent. And I bet if I said that and my husband was listening to me, he'd be like, Really? That's rubbish. Of course you are. Um, but I think one thing that I would say is that I think I think every stage matters in some way. Um, and I guess what I mean for that, it's kind of like it's sort of like, you know, Sandy, the branch manager at the Rockland Credit Union, saying, you know, when I said, you know, every um, well, I I want to do this because every different experience I had have kind of it will be a benefit to my future employers and so forth. And so I I think this every stage matters is that every everything kind of prepares you for the next level of the game. Um, and and taking what you can from each and every experience to enrich yourself. Um, like I try to gift this to my son who is 11, because I I hear people say he's in sixth grade, and kind of sixth grade is quite a pivotal, I know it's not the same, the grading, the grade uh conversion between the US and the UK has some differences, but you go from kind of fifth grade, which is elementary school, into sixth grade, which is kind of the first year of middle school. And fifth grade is quite pastoral and nurturing, and you have in one classroom with one teacher and um no virtually no homework, etc. You go into sixth grade and all of a sudden you've got four teachers, you're changing classrooms, you have to open a locker with a lock. Um, you have to do all of your homework on uh on an iPad and submit it via an application. Um, and it's really a cliff. And you know, some people say, oh well, sixth grade doesn't really count, or middle school doesn't really count, because it's only when you get to high school that it kind of defines where you go to college. But it's like uh hello, but think about the cliff from fifth grade to sixth grade. So if you basically say that middle school doesn't matter and you waste your time and you're not developing good habits and learning from mistakes and kind of getting better and incrementally improving, then actually when you get to high school and it does matter, then you're gonna be a puddle. You're gonna be a you're not gonna be able to handle it. So I think I don't think that's being like, I don't think that that's being too hard or being a helicopter parent or whatever. I think it's I like, I mean, I I think I made some terrible decisions when I was like a teenager. So it's like sometimes I think, how did I ever get here? It's so, it's so otherwise could have ended very differently. Um, but somehow like my motivation and my kind of ethic and like sort of seeing like I don't want that, I want that, kind of really sort of made me sharpen up. Um, but like it could have been like I had I had my crises early, very early. Um but it could be like if you have your crises later, then it could change the course of your life. So I'm a little bit paranoid about um, you know, making sure that basically kind of, you know, you're you're practicing. And you said in one of our conversations that in your um it was you you cause your parents no end of grief and worry, and you refer to yourself as a bit of a hellraiser. And it doesn't, it's interesting because knowing you as the person I know you today, that really strikes me. So I'm like, there's a disconnect there, but uh just say more to that. What did you do that made you uh that made you think you were a that what did you do that made you become a or made you think you were a hellraiser? Oh, I don't know, you know, it was like the the you know late 80s, early 90s, and you know, we have like crazy hair and too much aqua nette and you know smoking Marlborough red cigarettes and coming home late and um or like just ignoring curfews or whatever, and um and yeah, I mean making your parents kind of worry and and um and now that I'm obviously a parent myself of an 11 and a six-year-old, you know, I worry about their well-being, their future prospects, um, their, you know, respect and motivation. And um, and so yeah, I mean, when I think about that, I kind of feel like, oh God, I wish somebody really slapped me for being so selfish and unthoughtful. Um, but like the saving grace is that I I did turn out okay. And I think that's in no small part due to kind of the unconditional love and support of my my parents um at that time. But um, yeah, so and as we as we've said today, life is about lessons and teachings and moments, and it's um it's what you take from those moments. And that you know, they're defining moments. You wouldn't be the person you are now without having, you know, that's an experience. And you know, when you reflect on life today and reflect on life going forward, what do you think is the secret to a I'm gonna say I was gonna say fulfilling career, but fulfilling life? Yeah, I mean, career is just part of your life. And I think, you know, if you, you know, I guess I'm not very good at I think I there was a I think it was a in the Wall Street Journal last weekend, it was like work-life balance is kind of overrated. I wouldn't say that I'm really good at it, but I also don't feel like it's a problem because like I love what I do, so I'm kind of happy to always be I'm I'm I'm happy to have my career persona and my personal life and my personal life and my career persona. I'm just I'm one person, right? So I can't I can't switch off and be somebody different here and somebody different there. Um I'm just kind of what you see is what you get. But um I just yeah, I mean, I I I don't know if I have all of the answers. I mean, I'm still I kind of think I'm only like midway through the journey, but um, I think I'm trying to have a mindset which is that you really should have no regrets. Um some experiences are wonderful, others are hard, maybe devastating, but you can't really regret where life takes you. Um, like for example, if your work life balance isn't perfect or you have to make sacrifices to fit things all in, I have to do that, you have to do that. You know, I'm sure you travel and miss things, and I travel and miss things, and I try to make it up in another way. And you know, and some people say, Oh, well, you know, at the end of your life, people will say, Well, what did you, you know, don't you wish you worked less? And I mean, I'm the way I think right now, I kind of think, no, I mean, I enjoy what I do. I like each part, my work, my family. I mean, I'm I'm working to help support my family. Um, so you know, there's a it's not just like a an ego trip, it's like I have to work. Um, I want to work. Um, and I want to make a difference in the lives of everyone that, you know, as I said before, that I'm responsible to or is responsible to me. Um, and so, you know, and I and I think the other thing that may, you know, maybe is a bit cliche, but I was actually talking to somebody about um somebody that we both know because I was saying, oh, I'm I'm doing this podcast with Georgie tomorrow morning. And uh, and uh I don't know if I feel qualified to answer this question. And I think the other part is they reminded me that, you know, it's kind of not about the ultimate destination, but it's kind of like you might reach where you think you want to go, or you might not, but if you're always constantly like having everything on hold, or if your happiness is on hold, like, oh, I'll be happy when this happens, or I'll be fulfilled when this happens, or I would have like achieved something when I get there, like you just have to um you have to enjoy more more things along the way. And I think a lot of people would say that, but I actually think it's really true. So it is, it is so interesting. When I work with um especially entrepreneurs, that it's it's it's all about the journey, you know, they get to their their their goal and their next thing is the next big audacious goal, and it is about enjoying the journey and and having no regret risk. I think that's really important. And sometimes when I find myself ruminating on things, I'm like, will this matter two days, two weeks, two months, two years from now? And that is normally a healthy perspective of like, no, just let it go. Just you know, you just live life for now, enjoy the journey, and like you make a difference. Um, look, so thank you for sharing your time. This has been a true uh masterclass in leadership excellence. I'm excited to see your new role, the CEO of Finality, and it's going to be an extraordinary journey. And I look forward to being your cheerleader from the sideline. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure.