#9 Kay Swinburne: Leadership, Legacy and the Long Game

In this episode, I sit down with the remarkable Dr. Kay Swinburne, Baroness Swinburne.

Kay is currently the non-executive Chair of the Association of British Insurers and an advisor to numerous FS Boards, having held senior executive roles in the financial & professional services industry. She played a pivotal role in shaping regulatory reform, spearheading major legislative reforms in financial services covering key areas like MiFID II, EMIR. She was a member of the European Parliament (MEP) for Wales between 2009 and 2019 in the shadow of the great financial crash, which involved putting in place once in a lifetime legislation for financial services. Kay then had the great honour of becoming a member of the House of Lords in 2023.

However, it all began in West Wales. Kay’s roots were humble. She grew up in a family-run bakery, where her first job was helping behind the scenes - stacking shelves, weighing potatoes, and tackling the tasks no one else wanted. It was in those formative years that her relentless work ethic was forged and hard work became the foundation for everything that followed. Her school motto of Sic itur ad astra - reach for the stars becoming one of her north stars.

As a child, she dreamed of being a doctor or leading a major healthcare company. She began her career in pharmaceuticals, then went on to be a leading pharmaceutical analyst at an investment bank before founding and running a biotechnology hedge fund - all while raising her two young children just a year apart. This is a person who is used to dealing with personal pressure.

She speaks openly about how hard she has pushed herself - where good enough was never good enough. Relentlessly driven to test her limits, her early career was all about earning a seat at the table, delivering results, and making an impact. Today, while those ambitions remain, her focus has expanded to include not just success, but legacy.

Kay, by her own admission, is a meticulous planner and self-confessed control freak. Yet, ironically, the defining roles and pivotal moments in her career - from pharmaceuticals to banking, fund management to politics weren’t part of any master plan. Opportunities found her. It’s no surprise she’s been dubbed The Accidental Politician. She often reflects on the role of serendipity in her journey - success born not just of strategy, but of showing up and being open to the unexpected.

I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Kay. Her career has been defined by bold moves, guided by intellectual curiosity, courage, and humility. For Kay, it always comes back to the people. As she puts it, “It may have been your idea, it may be your company, but when things start to work, it’s because a team helped you deliver.” A powerful reminder that true leadership is never a solo act.

This is conversation is rich with insights, wisdom and lessons. It’s one you won’t want to miss.

Show Links

Website - https://www.georgiedickins.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiedickins

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@GeorgieDickins-q7x

Transcript

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Hi, I'm Georgie Dickens, host of Stratospheric Leaders, the podcast where I get to have inspired conversations with extraordinary leaders from across capital markets. Join me to hear their game-changing strategies, the personal stories and powerful sound bites behind their stratospheric success. Every episode packed with wisdom, insight, and real-world lessons, the stuff they simply don't teach you in business school. If you want to elevate your game and most importantly those around you, this podcast is for you. Enjoy. In this episode, I sit down with the extraordinary Dr. Kay Swinburne, Baroness Swinburne, for a powerful conversation. From her working class beginnings in West Wales, helping in the family bakery to senior roles in finance politics, and now as chair of the Association of British Insurers, Kay's journey is anything but ordinary. A former MEP who helped shape landmark financial legislation like MiFID2 and EMIR, Kay shares how serendipity, grit, and relentless drive have shaped her path, including founding a hedge fund whilst raising two children. And in 2023, being invited to the House of Lords by the Prime Minister himself, dubbed the accidental politician, Kay reflects on leadership legacy and why true success is always a team effort. This was such an enjoyable conversation. I took so many notes, it's one you're not gonna want to miss. Enjoy. I am delighted to welcome you to an episode of Stratospheric Leaders. Now you and I first met around when it was just the beginning of COVID. We were both at an event. You were one of the keynotes, I was running a session, and uh we've become firm friends ever since. You are certainly one of my go-to people, part of my inner tribe or trusted tribe when I need a sounding board, advice. Um, you've had a distinguished career covering politics, finance, hedge funds, farmers, we'll be covering many of the defining moments through your career today. I am so excited that to have you here today because based on the advice you give me, uh I know that there are going to be many gems that are shared. And as I said, you've had a very distinguished career. And I want to go back to where did it all start? So before you were any kind of paid employment, and what was your first ever job? So I grew up in a family business. So my parents, when I was about four, uh took on a new business well, a business that was established, but they took it on for themselves. And that was a high risk for them. But I grew up in a household where my parents worked long, long hours, and I, as the middle child, my brother seemed to have got away with a lot more than I did, but as the middle child, I was always called upon to come and actually help out. They had a bakery and a shop, and so I would actually be doing a lot of behind the scenes, filling the shelves, weighing all the potatoes, doing all the jobs that nobody else really wanted to do, I would be given to do. So I learned very early on the value of hard work, and also realized that my parents to the outside world, including to their staff, always looked calm and collected and everything seemed to be going according to plan. But behind the scenes we knew that that was not the case, that it was all very much, you know, hands to the deck and lots of panic and lots of worry behind the scenes. So for me, it also taught me a lot about being a swan. That you know, that outside to the world, giving confidence to everybody around you that yes, this is going fine, but inside that turmoil of you know, maybe this isn't going to work, maybe you know, things are not happening the way they should be. That turmoil of of you know paddling you know, frantically underneath the water was something I learned very early on. So I'd like to think I'm more often the swan rather than being seen to be frantic about things. And and and to your point, I think being the swan, people look to leaders for confidence, for certainty. The same we you know, when we're younger, we look to our parents, and that calmness and composure because emotions are contagious, so it's it's we want to make sure that ours are you know ones worth catching. And and you also said my speech, I teach my children this, whether they listen or not, is quite another question. But hard work is a minimum, and there are many people that desire success, there are a few that are prepared to do what it takes to get there. And I look at you know my children, and sometimes there's this lazy ambition. I'm like, no, no, no, hard work is a minimum. It really is, but I grew up in a household where it was very obvious that hard work was the only way to make things pay, and so that work ethic was instilled in me from a very early age. It's very difficult with the next generation when you've had a successful career to then try and instill that same hunger into them. And I think in some ways I had it easy. I grew up in West Wales in quite a difficult time, you know, with risks being taken by my parents, but also economically it wasn't a very prosperous time for West Wales. So all of these things meant that in order for me to actually thrive, I had to leave. So these are things that gave me real aspiration, it gave me a drive, it gave me that energy to actually make something of myself. So my school motto all those years ago was reach for the stars. And I think I'm still trying to do that. I love that. I love the, and as you know, you're part of Women in Leadership Global, and every cohort is named after a constellation of stars. So there's something there about reach for the stars, you know, dream big. Um, you mentioned you were your your family's business was a bakery. Um, what was your favourite thing you used to like to eat from the bakery? Because I am partial to uh bread, uh, but what was your favorite, yeah, favourite treat? So I've now realized that that they're not very good for me because I have a gluten intolerance, but there used to be a jam and cream slice with icing on the top that I used to be very partial to as a child. Very nice. Well that's making me hungry, it's nearly lunchtime. And when you were, you know, in your younger years, the hard work as a minimum, you know, you learnt the you know the the the calmness, you know, the outer projection of confidence. What did you as I said, you you had such an interesting and diverse career. What did you dream of becoming, you know, when you were a child? So my initial thoughts were that I wanted to be a doctor. Um, in the community I grew up in in West Wales. The the doctors, the GPs at the time were actually the cornerstone of the community. And so I wanted to be a GP. I wanted to be that person that people went to with their problems. And then I realized when I was about 15, when I spent a week with my local GP doing house calls, that I really wasn't cut out for this. Um, I don't respond very well to, I have a really bad gagging reflex. So if anybody is ill around me, I tend to follow suit. It's not a very good trait for a GP or anybody working in the health service. So I realized very early on that practically it wasn't the right thing for me. So I had to pivot and actually think about other areas that would give me the same intellectual stimulus as medicine and the whole area. And so I landed on pharmaceuticals and decided very early on I wanted to be the CEO of a major pharmaceutical company, and that was going to be my aspiration going forwards. Haven't managed to do that, but you know, there's still time for me to actually maybe chair something going forwards. Yeah, and I'm gonna add one word to what you've just said that I haven't managed to do that yet, because maybe that is written in the stars. You talked about, you know, the stars. And as you've traversed your career, I'm sure you know many people over the years have offered you advice. What is a piece of advice that's been shared with you that has really stayed with you? So when I first had my children and trying to juggle founding and running a hedge fund with having two young children a year apart, that for me was uh a time when it was a lot of personal pressure. And someone gave me the advice that that those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind. And I know you and I have shared this before, but it really does resonate with me. And every time I get stressed about small things not being perfect, I now actually stop and and think that thought. Because genuinely, if people really care about you, then the little things they really don't matter. Whereas if people think it matters, I really shouldn't be caring. Yeah, can you say that again? It's those that matter don't mind, and those that mind don't matter. Absolutely. It's so powerful, isn't it? Because it's it's often we can you know, not not everyone's gonna like us or or nor do we like everyone. And it's it's I can find myself sometimes getting fixated on the view of one, you know, rather than the majority. And the view of one isn't representative of the view of many. And I remember my coach once said to me, you know, the importance leverage the believers. There are gonna be people that doubt, people who screw, you know, just you trigger them for whatever reason. That's okay, but don't don't bleed energy on that because it just is just not a productive use of time. And it's important that you know to realize you don't have to be perfect all of the time. You can show up as you are rather than actually trying to meet those goals of perfection. And I think you know, I'm certainly my my own worst enemy when it comes to judging myself. I suspect others are less less callous than I am to myself. And do you think that perfectionism, it's interesting because you say that word, and it's something that I really deeply connect to as well. Do you think that's also being been a contributor to your success? I suspect it has on the basis that I push myself very hard. I would push myself harder than I would ever expect a team member to do so. Um you know, good has never been good enough for me. So it's it's always been driving myself to my limits to to find out where they are, to actually make sure that I really am reaching as high as I possibly can. And settling has never been good enough. Therefore, you know, I I do try and reach those standards, never ever get to perfection. But I'd like to think I have a very good try at it. And what you shared there, you know, it's that's where we see our limits. You know, let's find our limits and you know, let's be boundless, let's let's push those. And for me, I think perfectionism, it's it's a strength and and it has a shadow side. So it's recognising where does it move from the realm of being helpful, I like healthy ambition, pushing us to where does it then step into I'm not good enough, that you know, it we can then move into doubt or self-doubt that can at times be even quite debilitating. No, it is, but I think you also I think as my career has progressed, you know, I would have defined my success and and therefore my drive to perfectionism, sort of trying to manage that success. Uh historically, when I was younger, it would always be about the results I was seeing and being at the table and making an impact. And I think as I've got older and and you know more confident in my leadership skills, I now am in a different phase where it's more about reputation legacy. Have I done enough to open doors for other people? Have I done enough to challenge the companies I work with so that they are you know innovating, that they are moving on, that they're adapting, that they're evolving. Is that something that I can be proud of? And those are very different goals and ways of measuring your output than I would have had when I first started my career. And to your point, things change over time, don't they? It's you know, for our 20s, you know, goals might be making money to buy a house, get married, or whatever, you know, whatever the goals are. But and I think what you shared there, I love that one, you know, reputation legacy. Am I you know have I opened doors for others? And where do you feel you're at with your reputation legacy? Oh, I've got a long way to go. I have got a long, long way to go. That's the perfection coming out. Yes, but actually, it it's also what gets me up in the mornings, it's what gets me engaged in all of the companies I'm working with and you know the roles I'm taking on. And you go through different phases in your career, and I'm at that really what I consider to be a privilege right now of starting an on-exec career and an advisory career, so the plural stage of my life, rather than you know, having one company that you're dedicated to, and that is is a genuine privilege. So, you know, it gets me out of bed in the morning. These are the things that I now know I need to challenge myself every day and challenge those around me every day. It's a good thing, and I love that challenge myself every day because again, if we're reaching for the stars, it is always about challenging ourselves. And you've had such an interesting career, as I said, it crosses many different sectors, and I'm gonna ask this and I'm sure you know what have been the defining moments? I'm sure there are many, but what are the moments that have really left an imprint for you? So most of the big moments in my career, um, and and therefore involved change, have been serendipitous. So I haven't planned them, and and as a big planner and a control freak, that's actually for me when I look back, is an unusual thing. That it's been serendipity. I have unexpectedly met someone who's offered me an opportunity that I then had to say, Well, should I do this? This isn't in my comfort zone. Should I go and try something completely new? And so I, you know, I was referred to as the accidental politician. I was, you know, a financial person through and through. I'd spent all of my career specializing in pharmaceuticals but in the financial services sector, either as a bank or as a fund manager. And suddenly I meet David Cameron as leader of the opposition, and he says, Why don't you come and actually help me perform a function that brings the real world into the political world? Somebody who's got different experiences who can actually guide the legislation in a different way. And it was a challenge, and so he calls me the accidental politician, and I think to this day it does make me smile, but my most defining moments ended up being when I was elected to the European Parliament in 2009 in the shadow of you know the great financial crash. Therefore, you're actually putting in place once-in-a-lifetime legislation for financial services. So I find myself as vice chair of the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee through successive Eurozone crises, through major things that were happening, and for the first time Brussels was legislating for financial services, which was really important for London as a global financial centre. So, you know, actually taking that UK's voice to the table and making sure that the legislative agenda was suitable and fit for purpose for London as a global financial centre was a real great privilege, and I really enjoyed that. That was probably one of my most defining, more I guess I can pinpoint exactly what I did. So it it is a real defining career change for me. And the accidental politician, I feel that's a memoir, like that feels like that. That I can see that on a on a book cover, and and you shared there when you know there's that serendipity, and it's been about stepping outside your comfort zone because people can see something in you, your talents, your skills, your experiences, and also your potential. What's been the lesson you'd give to a mentee or someone that came to your advice about you know, I want to take on this new role, but it's outside my comfort zone. I'm just I'm nervous, I'm worried, like what if it goes wrong? But stretch is a really good thing, and doing something in a slightly different field makes you it you take all your skills with you. So all the skills you've learned already in life, and all the skills you've learned at every part of your career, you take with you to that new opportunity, and therefore you're not starting afresh. You're taking all of those skills, you're applying them to a slightly different area. But the reality is I think it makes you more rounded and you come with a different perspective, which is really important, and for me, that allows you to challenge the status quo, it allows you to look for ways to do things differently, to do things more productively, to be more efficient, and to really raise the bar to think genuinely about questions, you know, to question the way that people are doing things right now. And I think it's a great thing. So when I've got mentees saying to me, and you know, I worked at a big four firm where they would, you know, give me a large number of mentees from all areas of the company to speak with, and I would just say to them, listen, if you think you're ready, even a little bit of you is ready, then go and do it. Because you have to actually push and stretch yourself. And what about those moments of doubt where it's like, don't do it? We know we if we're human beings, we have a heartbeat, unless we're completely narcissistic, you know, we'll we'll have those moments of doubt. And that voice can sometimes be you know dialed up on loud, a repeating pattern. What do you do in those, what do you do personally when you have those moments of self-doubt? But I think the key message here is we all do have them. It doesn't matter how senior you are, you still have those moments of self-doubt. So for me, it's a question of of you know what is coming up in my day or that week or that month that is really important. So prioritizing the things that are really important, and then when you've got your list of priorities, your top few priorities, you sit there and say, Okay, how can I approach this? You break it down, you you take it down into manageable pieces, and then all of a sudden it's not about self-doubt anymore, it's about execution, and I can execute, and and most people, you know, have got enough experience under their belt that they can execute the plan that they've just made. So I think you know, breaking it down, making sure that you actually understand what's being asked of you, and making sure you've prioritised in the first place because you can't do everything for everybody at the same time. Oh, there's so many uh yes, and we it's interesting, isn't it? Because we often we can have so many competing demands. But I I what you said there, I think is that there's several things to underscore, but making sure you're clear on what the ask of you is, because I think sometimes we can live in the world of assumptions or something's asked of us, but like are we aligned with expectations or are we operating in the grey? So, really having that alignment of this is you know shared understanding is so critical in order that you're prioritizing on the things that matter and on the right things, and and when you look at leadership, you've been a senior leader for for many many years. I asked you early, you know, what's the advice that's kind of stayed with you, but what's the one thing no one warns you about? I I think for me it's it was important to actually learn for myself because nobody told me that it requires as much EQ as it does strategic clarity to be a decent leader. And I always thought if you have the best plan, you've worked it all out, you have all the data to back it all up, then that would actually be sufficient, but it's not. You need to show up as the person who's going to be collaborative, who's going to be collegiate, who's going to be able to communicate that plan effectively. And it's really important for people to understand the why. Why are they doing things? Because if they understand the why, you're far more likely to get things that are aligned to what you want to happen. And I always, I guess when I first people always tell you you have to have the plan, you have to have, you know, sort of as a leader, you need to be able to communicate. They give you all these big sound bites, but the reality is that it's beyond that. You have to get underneath the skin of the team of the people you're working with. You have to bring them on a journey with you. And you know, you've got to show up. How you show up matters. It's not just about what you say, it's about what you do, it's about what you look like, it's about your body language that they pick up on. All of these things, we're back to my swan again. You know, you have to actually be able to deliver that confidence for them no matter what. And with you know, and I totally agree with the why. I think the why is it's Simon Sinek, um, a thought leader, he talked about the why, and then it's that it's the how and the what because you know the why connects people, it connects people on an emotional level. So, as leaders, it's about being a great storyteller and Because stories people have, you know, recall you know, people remember stories. When it's you you mentioned about taking people on the journey. How do you know as a leader if people are on the journey with you? Like, what do you look out for to be like, no, my message is landing, and they're in you know, they're enrolled in the why? So I'm looking for people through their actions, demonstrating to me that they're comfortable and trust and what I've said and created a framework for them, that they're so comfortable that they will push that envelope, that they will really come to me with new ideas, they'll be thinking creatively, they'll be very happy to be innovative rather than actually going for the really conservative strategy. And if you've got people who are engaged in that way and you see them actively trying to push, you kind of know you've got it right. It's when they're in their comfort zone and they're they're just doing the safe thing that you've probably not got it quite right. And and you you mentioned the outer optics, which we discussed at the beginning, and it feels a really important one to underscore because that EQ, people you set the tone. You know, when you walk into the room, how you show up your face, your eye contact, your energy. You know, we I'm sure we've all experienced leaders that walk into a room where sometimes they're frenetic, frazzled, they're looking at their phone whilst they're speaking to you, or and it it's it's the impact that that their actions and behaviours have on others. And and EQ for me is part of that is about you know empathy, putting yourself into the shoes of others, really giving thought to how do all people to feel when they leave the room and knowing that how do I need to be as a leader? I guess it's really important, and I've just started chairing a new firm, and for me it's been a really interesting journey to go from the exec to the non-exec, but the reality is the same skills are required and the same EQ is required. You may have some very senior people sitting around the table, but the reality is I still have to be aware of some people who are less likely to contribute than others. So I like to have an inclusive group. I like to have people feeling comfortable and that they trust me that I value the opinion that they give me, and that in no way would I actually make them feel that their opinion wasn't valid when they they gave their opinion. That's all really important at all levels. And so, you know, whether you're with a team of juniors or a team of very senior management, it doesn't matter. The same requirement for EQ is there. And that valuing other people's opinions, it's interesting. Having worked in the corporate space, you know, I worked there for 20 years, it'd be interesting where you somehow see people um speak over others or interject, and you think you've really now you know limited the other not limited the other person's thinking, but that you know, they then you know you could see people either um retort or otherwise others can shut down, you know, you could miss some extraordinarily amazing ideas by simply not listening and not creating the right space for other people to be heard because some of those opinions could be incredibly valuable. Absolutely. And how important is listening? You know, I said the word listening there. Is that something would you say that is something I you know I think great leaders are great listeners? Is that something that you you you'd say is in your uh Arsenal skills? Is it something you've learned? I think I've learned to listen properly. Um, I think listening is one thing, actually, hearing is another. So I I now I hope listen a little more carefully and listen critically. So, you know, you keep the comments inside until you've heard the entire sort of comments that people are making and then respond to it. And sometimes you don't need a response at all, sometimes you just need to listen. And sometimes I don't always do it. Um, you know, I'm I am Welsh, I do tend to speak too much. So, you know, the reality is that that speaking is an easy thing to do, whereas listening is harder. Yeah, it's it's so true, and it's it and you said a second ago, you know, sometimes it's recognizing when it it's not it's just important not to speak, and it reminded me there's a chap called Justin Barisso, he's written a book on EQ, it's called EQ Applied, it's a brilliant book, and there was a three-tip trick in there where you're in let's say you're in a you're in a meeting and someone said something that maybe you don't agree with, and his three tips are you know, does this need to be said? It's first one. Number two, does this need to be said by me? And then third thing, does this need to be said by me now? Because maybe it does need to be said by you, but the now is like this is more of a bilateral conversation rather than calling it out in the team, and those three questions really landed. I thought they're very, very simple but quite profound in the coming from a place of consciousness, you know, rather than knee-jerk reactions, which you know are more emotional led. And I think I haven't read his book, but I think I probably should. Um, the reality for me is the the last bit of that is a really important piece of the puzzle. You know, there are lots of things you can take offline, that you can take someone aside, and you will get a far more productive reaction and response and future behaviour if you deal with it in private. And you know, in the political world in particular, it's all about impressions and you don't want to appear weak by giving in. But actually, if you take someone aside privately afterwards and say, by the way, if you'd said this in this way, I think it might have landed better. Then it's amazing how that has a huge impact and it it strengthens your relationship with that individual, but it also builds trust and confidence in everybody else because you haven't called them out and created friction in public at the time. Yeah, very few people respond well to being called out in public. Typically doesn't go very well, and which which makes me think about feedback. You know, feedback is a gift, it's a gift that's rarely given. Often, when it comes to leaders, people want to give leaders the polished apple. And it's interesting, when I went up in my, you know, grew up in my well, in the corporate world, I assumed that at the most senior levels everyone was always giving each other feedback, where actually it's often in that rarefied atmosphere where the you know the least feedback is given. You know, what advice would you give to people in terms of the the art of giving, I suppose, constructive feedback? And it's an interesting one because I I worked at one of the big four for a number of years when I came out of the public sector the last time round, and there was 360 feedback and 360 feedback regularly. So this wasn't just once-a-year appraisal stuff, it was a regular 360 feedback, and some of the feedback I found most useful were from the more junior members of my team, where they felt safe and empowered to give proper feedback. But the reality was you you then realized how you come across, and you know, by all accounts, um I can be quite scary. I didn't, I don't think of myself as being scary, but you know, putting myself in other people's shoes, maybe what I think is sharing my knowledge and demonstrating you know my expertise and knowledge publicly can be seen as some to some people as intimidating. And just knowing that means you then convey things in a slightly different way, and you know, asking people's opinions rather than just telling them the way the world is is a really important part of my journey learning, and you know, coming out of politics back into business, you know, you've got it's a very different world in politics to that of a big business, and there were major lessons for me to learn at the time, and I hope I have learned and grown as a result of that. But the 360 feedback and the junior and your peers for me were actually more important to me as an individual necessarily than from the top. From the top, you have daily contact. You kind of, you know, when I came in as a vice chair of a firm, you're already at a fairly senior level, there aren't many people above you. So you have that regular contact, you've got that daily feedback, you know whether it's going well or not. But the peers and and and sort of your team giving you regular feedback and feeling confident that they can give you that feedback was really important. And I think yeah, feeling confident they can give you the feedback, it's not asking for the feedback and then disagreeing with them. It's it's you know making them feel that they're and also that the safety, you mentioned the word trust earlier, that they're it's a trusted space. Um and one of Lance's team, they said that for their senior management team, they all had a reverse mentor. So someone who was you know been in the company two, three years in you know, uh early mid-20s, and he's shared that the reverse mentoring was so interesting because they've got different foundations, different perspectives, and that for him was the most valuable. And someone else shared that they always like to get feedback from a detractor as well. Because I know when I was at JP Morgan, we had our 360s and we could select our review hosts, so I have clearly selected everyone that I got really well with. I wouldn't have dreamed of asking for you know detractor to give me feedback, and I'm sure things have changed since then. But that detractor, and this individual said you can learn as much from the detractor as you can from the champions. I think it's really important to embrace different thinking and to embrace people who actually maybe have a contrarian view to yourself, and you know, I do that in all sorts of ways. My social media feed is is full of people I vehemently disagree with, but I need to know what their opinions are and why they think what they do, and you know, it's important that I don't just have a very narrow prism that I'm looking through in life, and so I extend that to my business life. I I want to know why people think the way they do, and try and understand why they've come to a completely different opinion to the one that I might have done with the same data set. And you know, that for me is is a fascinating journey. And I think being involved in politics for a number of years I have has helped me actually get over people's opinions in a way that maybe in business you are much more like-minded in one firm. There, the detractors tend to be minor detractors, they're not massively different to you in your outlook. Whereas, you know, when you go into politics, I can tell you there are people who have very, very different opinions and ideologies to yourself. And understanding where they're coming from for me was a big first step of understanding how you then actually get over some of their concerns and get them around to your way of thinking, because ultimately that's what politics needs to do, politicians need to do. You need to bring people along with you on a journey to your way of thinking. And and what you shared a second ago, I think is it it I kind of thought about you know, it's holding the mirror when there are the detractors, and maybe there is just a very you know, there is a difference of opinion, and two truths can be true at the same time. And I think there's an opportunity to be like, what might I be missing? Is there anything I'm not noticing? Because we don't know what we don't know, and it's so yeah, as much feedback is the you know the outside in, but also the inside out, and sometimes those detractors there might be a something that you're completely missing, a complete blind spot, but maybe a seed, so something's not significant, nonetheless, it's it's worthy of like exploring it a little bit more. And I think you also need to make sure that when you do have that feedback from a detractor, you you take it in the vein it's intended, so it's professional, it's not necessarily personal, and so to try and dissociate the personal from the professional is really important because you can then move on once you've had that conversation with them. Yeah, and it's interesting because they say feedback is the oxygen of champions, and when you look at any sports, you know, whether it's football, rugby, cricket, that they're getting you know, international level, they're getting well, all most levels actually, but feedback all the time from your teammates, from the coach, from the referee, from the crowds, and it makes them better. And I think in today's world, you know, I used to, if someone said to me, Georgie, can I give you some feedback? I'm like, oh holy molys, you know, I'm about to get fired. We're actually it's it's just it's got it we kind of need another word because feedback we can only get we only get better when we know better, and that means it's either us, you know, us seeking insight and information from others or other people feeling they can actively share and disclose with us. Absolutely, and I think companies need to actually take that to heart too. It's not about individuals, it's also about the work you might have just delivered for a client. So making sure you actually genuinely get feedback on the work that you've just done is really important because how do you improve if you don't know where you need to improve? And so, for me, you know, part of moving into an advisory role when I came out of politics back in in 2019, it was important for me to actually understand what the client valued in the piece of work that we delivered for them. You know, what could we have done better and what what really already excelled. And actually being able to benchmark that was a really important exercise. And I think a lot of firms skip over the client feedback, they just tick a box. Whereas actually, I always thought it was one of the most valuable things I could do. Yeah, so what it's so it's what is the client most value, like what do they most value to really make sure that's being amplified and that message is being communicated out. Yes, and then you've got not only personal development and development of your team, you've also got business practice development, which is critically important in a service industry. Yeah, it's interesting with client feedback, you know, the people around you don't know what they don't know, you know, and it could be the iceberg, they see the the headline of the deal or the headline of the you know what you've achieved, but what about the five sevenths, like everything that's gone into that? So it's I used to think it was a complete meritocracy when I grew up, and that all our successes, you know, we just that get recognised, and I I I slowly realise you have to be your own steward, you know, whether it's your personal brand or making people aware of your successes, and you don't want to be the shrill self-publicist because that's not attractive, but you can't be a shrinking violet and just assume people know. I want to um pivot because um leaders have many different qualities, and I was curious from your perspective, in terms of what are some of the attributes you most respect in in leaders. So, most of the great leaders that I've had the privilege of working with have been entrepreneurs, so they themselves have actually believed in something they've done enough to actually put their personal finances at risk and have and their reputations at risk and have actually had the courage to stand out and to do this new venture. So for me, courage is a really big part of that. Intellectual curiosity. So people who actually really do want to know why things are happening and and how you could do things differently. That intellectual curiosity for me is a driver for almost everything that I think the the business world needs, intellectual, curious, intellectually curious people. But when you've got courage and you've got intellectual curiosity, I think you also need a dose of humility. So I think it's really important that you recognize that when things start to work, it may have been your idea, it may be your company, but actually there's a team that's helped you deliver it. So great leaders for me have got that mix of the courage, the curiosity, and the humility. And it's interesting the word courage because as I look at your career, it is one of bold moves and courage. And yes, you've you've been identified for different opportunities, and and it there's it takes fortitude and and a and a and a strength to be like, you know what, I can do this. So I that that word, as you said that, I thought that's that's you you embody that word. Well, it's interesting because I wouldn't identify myself with it. Um I wouldn't think I was courageous. Um I don't think I am the person who would would take the risks. I I ran a hedge fund for a while. I I was a co-founder and and ran a hedge fund for a biotech fund, and I can tell you, my I was not courageous. Um those traders around me tested my nerves daily. Um so for me, you know, courage is not something that I necessarily would put as being one of my attributes, but interesting that others may see it differently. No, I absolutely do. And you said there about testing, you know, testing nerves in organizations and and politics as well. Let's be clear, there's always going to be conflict, difference of opinions. How do you how do you address conflict? Um, and it's not necessarily about having a win-win outcome, but I don't think that's always possible, but the best possible outcome. So, from a professional point of view, I mean it it has to be head-on. You have to deal with conflict in a professional environment. Immediately it's apparent that there is a conflict. Um, but you have to do it respectfully. So if people realize you're coming at it with good intentions, I think, and they trust that you will manage the situation appropriately from both sides. I think that's important. You know, you need to focus on the facts, you've got to make sure you've got the desired outcomes in mind when you're having difficult conversations. And you know, people have got diverse opinions and you have to embrace that. They don't always have to be the same. So conflict isn't always bad, but you have to manage a way through it. And for me, that therefore means you know, dealing with it. And and those who know me well, particularly on a personal level, will say that in my personal life, I am the world's best ostrich. Um, when it comes to any form of personal conflict, I will put my head in the sand for as long as I can feasibly get away with it. So much so that my best friend actually uses as a verb that K is ostriching again. So, you know, it's it's it's quite odd where there's a difference between my professional and my private life, where I will take one, you know, head on and the other I will put off as long as I possibly can. It's interesting how different personas, um, personal and professional, and the professional piece there, it really, you know, what you're saying that you know, deal with it head on. Like when you're a senior leader, it's non-negotiable. Some of these conversations you actually don't have the ability to put your head in the sand. There is there is no choice, but you mentioned a really valuable point that you know, lead with fact, take emotion out of it. I think when emotions come into play, they can be highly triggering. And before you go in, you said, Yeah, what are the desired outcomes? I think it's you know, what is the end state that I'm looking to achieve? And knowing that, what are the facts that I need to bring in? And and I I don't know if people always think about the end state, they go in preparing what they want to deliver, but what's the outcome I'm driving? Critically important, particularly when you've got people that don't necessarily see eye to eye within a team. Yeah, and I and I wouldn't it be wonderful if the world was free of conflict. Sadly, we don't live in that place, and I think it's one of those skills, the more you exercise it, it's like a muscle, the stronger it becomes. And you have to trust your instincts to a certain extent too. Do your planning, but trust your instincts in the moment. Yeah, the instincts are our fair brain, our intuition. And look, you've you've held many um different senior roles in politics, in the financial world and the business world. There is a scrutiny that comes with the seat. You know, we live in a world now where it is a cancel culture. Uh, things you say can be evergreen, can you can be misrepresented very easily. So it takes a certain kind of person, I think, and leader to be able to cope with the scrutiny of the seat. I mean, there's lots of great things, but I think it's good it's going into these seats, you know, these roles open-minded. What's been your mechanisms uh for dealing with that? So I I had the joy of being in the public eye for 10 years as an elected politician, and I can tell you that the scrutiny of the public is actually so great and such a pressure that it changes the way in which you behave and the way in which you act. And I would say very clearly that I do even today on things I'm involved in, I do a daily mail test. And by that I mean, would I be happy for this to be on the front page of the Daily Mail? And if the answer to that is no, why am I doing it? And you know, the reality is that you know, if you always try to do the right thing for the right reasons, then you can defend why you've done it. And whether it's work or whether it's it's your personal life or anything in between, then I think dealing with scrutiny, if you've done the right thing, you can then actually defend it. And I think you you could be strong and and and you know really stand up tall. But yeah, always. Check that you have done the right thing for the right reasons. Yeah, the Daily Mail test. And it's you know, would I want my mum to see this on the front page of the you know the Daily Mail? And I think it's having that it's that power and the pause, isn't it? Before before you and you have to be very conscious, and I suppose the words deliberate, um because things can have repercussions. So there's the thoughtfulness that's needed, and and that thoughtfulness is interesting because I think thoughtfulness requires time, and I think we're in a world where things are moving faster than ever before, you know, changes, it's acute. Um yeah, the playbook from last year is not necessarily the playbook for for today. And when you I mean you've navigated you know extreme periods of volatility and change in the past. What advice do you give to other business leaders in terms of how do you lead, how do you steer and create a steady ship in these moments? So there was a phrase in Brussels that we used to use of never wasting a good crisis. And you know, that came about because we were in the middle of successive Eurozone crises. Things were going really badly wrong politically, things were going wrong economically, you know, the financial crisis, then the successive Eurozone crises. There was a lot going on. So never waste a good crisis is something that not only works for a country or a political establishment like the EU, it also works for business. If you're going through a period of significant volatility, uncertainty, then you use it as an opportunity to actually have change for good. And that for me, if if your values are intact, stay true to your values at all times, make sure you've got trust and integrity with your team. But the reality is you can use that as an opportunity to actually build back better. And I genuinely think that you know we sometimes see a crisis as a completely negative thing, but actually, out of every crisis, you usually get the opportunity to have a better outcome, and so I really do think that that you know we we should in some ways embrace that uncertainty and utilize it as the vehicle for change. Yeah, and it's interesting in periods of change, I think you really see leadership come through because in fair winds, it's it's I'm not gonna say it's easy to lead, but it's easier. I think when it's turbulent times, you then see you know who could, you know, who can navigate those storms. And it's all about information and communicating what you can. So if you're in a particular crisis within a business, you may not be able to share everything with all of your team, but the reality is you can share a lot. And so making sure that you've got those open channels of dialogue, you're constantly talking to both your team and your stakeholders, and whether that's your clients or your regulators, or you know, if you're a country, then you know it's going to be your your members of your your constituency. All of these things, there are common links here. You need to communicate properly, but stay true to yourself, stay true to your company's values, to your personal values, and then you know, managing that uncertainty, whether it's for your country or for your company, becomes much, much easier. And transparency is equity, it's it's a saying that I I I've borrowed off um, I think it was Rick McVeigh from Market Access, and I love the transparency is equity because what you're saying, communicate what you can, otherwise people will fill in the gaps, and where possible you want to avoid those unhelpful water cooler moments that can quickly, well they're pretty, can be pretty cancerous for an organization. So as much as you can, and and I and I think it's that chief repetition officer or chief reinforcement officer in times of change. People are sometimes thinking about, we're supposed to be thinking about COVID, you know, staying alive, keeping your family safe. So you have to keep repeating the message because you can't assume because you've said it once at a town hall that everyone's knows, you know, it can you know can repeat the message back. And in times of change, there there are you know there are there are decisions that need to be made, and there'll be times where you have to make decisions, incomplete data, you you might not even know what corners you need to be looking around. How do you make decisions when everything is moving so so fast? So when I've got all the facts to hand and I've got a good pack of data, I can be exceedingly decisive and very urgent in my decision making. The reality is that you don't always have all of those facts to hand and you have to make certain suppositions. You've got to actually draw and infer from certain things. So, yeah, if you've got multiple decisions coming towards you, triage them. And there's a reason why medics triage when they're in a situation of difficulty. You need to make sure that you've prioritised the right decisions at the right time. And you don't always get it right, but you also need to then trust your team, you need to delegate where appropriate. So you may not be the best person under that particular set of circumstances to make the decision, even if you are the boss. So delegate it to the person who does have more information than you and can actually do it effectively and efficiently where you might actually not be able to do so. And I think of the Navy SEALs saying here, like slow is steady, steady is fast. Um use the word triage, and that's slowing things down to your point. Where do I need to delegate? Where do I need to empower others? What's the decision only I can make? And that triaging, yes, it might not slow things down, but it's it's just let's collect the information we have before we decide on the plan. Absolutely, and then you know, you know you're making the best decision that you possibly can with the information you currently have. It's never going to be perfect, but at least you've paused. I go back to your pause. It's really important that you in that moment pause to actually think about what is the right way forwards. I think it's Jeff Bezos. I think it's Jeff Bezos, who has the one-door, two-door. So that you know, he he goes between reversible and irreversible decisions. You know, the irreversible is let's say I sell my house, well, I can't just buy that back. Um, so it that's again a mechanism by how he applies waiting because the irreversible is maybe being a little bit more judicious versus the ones that are reversible. That makes sense to me, but I've I've never really I take a very long time to make decisions that involve my personal life. On a work front, they tend not to be you don't make them in isolation. Whereas, you know, buying or selling my house would be a personal decision with nobody else who who would necessarily input to that decision making. My children might disagree now, but uh given they're in their 20s, um, I would say it's now my decision to to make. The reality is in in work, it's rarely yours alone. You're always going to have a senior management team around you, you're always gonna have people who actually can advise you, you pay them for their advice, let them give you it. So, you know, for me, in a work situation, it's it's rarely for me that irreversible decision, unless you're a Jeff Bezos, and you know, your your entire building of your firm is because you've made those decisions at the right time. Yeah, and I and you mentioned your your your parents and children there, and I I I was I met your your mum when we you had your introduction to the House of Lords, so your Baroness Swinburne. I always love to introduce you to everyone as my friend Baroness Swinburne. Um and I know you're you're very humble, so that but you wouldn't that's not your you wouldn't always introduce yourself as that title, but what if you know for your for your for your mum and obviously if your father were still alive, what do you think they're most proud of when it comes to you? So I think they're probably proud of the fact that I've stayed true to my personal values while striving to actually make an impact in the big wide world. Um I think sort of it it manifested that day of my introduction to the House of Lords. I wasn't expecting the phone call from Rishi Sunaka asking me to go into the House of Lords. It came completely out of the blue, and three weeks later I was being introduced into the House of Lords, uh, an institution that I'd only ever looked at from afar, hadn't really understood how great an honour this was going to be. And I think having my mother there and having friends and family around me, you know, when I got to do my oath of allegiance to the king and got to do it in Welsh unexpectedly, I think that was the time I knew my mum was proud. So yeah, you've got me all emotional now. But no, that was a that really was one of those unexpected things in life that I was glad that at least my mum was around to see. But it it circles back to what you said at the beginning: reach for the stars, and you know, you thought you didn't think that was possible, and yet if I look at everything you've done, with politics and finance and the business world, like you you you've been an extraordinary leader, and and and for me, I personally was like it's so wonderful that that's acknowledged publicly. And it doesn't always happen, you know. I know a large number of people that I would actually have put well ahead of myself on that list of of that particular honour. So, you know, I'm very grateful, and and again, you know, I I it it's it's humbling to be given that responsibility in the House of Lords. And as we as we I I I always like to close by having a very well a quick fire round on so people get to know a little bit more. Um, well, we've we've heard a lot about you today and your your uh some of your key lessons and stories and insights. This is more on a human level. Um, and so several questions here. Typically, the first the first thing that comes into your mind, uh there's no right or wrong, not competition. Um, so the first one is a leader you admire. Oh, there's quite a few. So I'm at Christine Lagarde. She's really intellectual, she's calm in a crisis, and she is a phenomenal female mentor. Okay, so Christine Lagarde, calm in a crisis. She's got lots of lots of ways to be tested there. Um, what do you think people think of you when they meet you for the first time? So I'll answer a slightly different question, but I I like them to think as opposed to what they necessarily do, is that I'm maybe thoughtful, strategic, and maybe collaborative. Uh, a quality you most value in others? Integrity. Yes. Your go-to drink in a coffee shop. Oh, black Americano every time. Favourite coffee shop? Uh I I have I have a real pension for black sheep coffee. Oh, black sheep's good, yeah. They also do really good muffins. Uh, are you an early bird or night owl? Or somewhere in between? A night owl. Are you? See, I'm I'm in morning lark. Nah, I'm definitely a night owl. If I need to really put my thoughts down and really think strategically, I do it usually after about eight o'clock at night. And what time do you go to bed? I I I have I'm forced to be a lark rather than a night owl. So these days I'm in bed by eleven, but historically it wouldn't have been until one o'clock. And okay, and if you go to bed at 11, what's the last touch point you have with your phone? Uh I do I do check my phone before I go to bed. Um, I'm I I have no yeah, no, I have no boundaries. It is alongside my bed and it's switched on all night. I'm a legacy of my children needing things in the middle of the night. And yeah, I was away in Brussels for many, many years whilst my children were quite young, and so I would always have my phone on, always the volume up, never night setting. So if anybody ever needed me, I was always available. Yeah, I think when it comes to children, to your point, I my phone's with me. Um, but I did speak to a CTO recently, she sleeps with three phones under her pillow, so let's be clear, we're you we're doing okay with the phone on by our bedside. Um, would you classify yourself as an introvert or an extrovert? Probably a bit in between. Um, I really take my energy from being with other people, so I I love that the communal sort of sharing, but I recharge usually walking up the Mulvern Hills with my dog. Yeah, I yes, I yeah, I I'm with you walking with a dog. Mind you, mine are naughty, so they typically don't stay with me. Um uh how best to get your attention? Email, phone call, like what's the best mechanism? Email because I can deal with it anytime, even if you're a lark as opposed to a night owl, I can I can send you an email at night. Uh one thing you can't work without really old school here, pen and paper. Yeah, I do I'm trying to migrate everything, but I it's even books, I buy books rather than Kindles. This, but I yeah. Alright, if I need to to get down some strategic thoughts, if I need to actually write a policy paper, I have to go back to pen and paper. And did you think do you think that's um does it take longer in the process because you can't just edit, cut it, you know, cut paste, or is that where the download is just more profound? It's more profound. Uh there is a connection seemingly directly between my brain and my hand that that flows onto a piece of paper. It doesn't happen on a keyboard. Yeah, same here, same here. Best book you've read this year, or best thing you've watched on TV if you're more of a I've been reading a lot of AI books recently, so I've just finished actually on the audio version of it, supremacy. Um, that was written by Palmi Olson. So I'm I'm trying to understand how we've got to where we are with AI, and then I can start to plan what needs to happen going forwards, particularly in the financial services sector. Okay, that feels like one I need to read as well. And um last question. What is the and I haven't prepared this because I'm I'm feeling into the question. Is something about your children? You know, what is the one lesson you want your children to take from you through their lives? Uh that nothing is unachievable. If you set your mind to it, you can go out there and make a really, really good stab at getting it. I I genuinely think, yeah, we're back to reach for the stars. You you genuinely can reach for the stars. And do you know what? If you don't reach the stars, you're gonna have reached a pretty decent place. Yeah, it's true, it's about you you said earlier stretching yourself, stretching yourself and seeing what's possible, being boundless. Look, I um I always love our conversations. Um, you are just again such um you've just been such an incredible person in my life. So I can't thank you enough for that, and also for sharing you know your insights and lessons today because I know how many people are going to benefit, and I truly believe a single insight could shift everything for someone. And there are so many insights here, so I look forward to more of the world hearing your brilliance. So thank you so much, Kenny. Thank you, Georgie.