#10 Justin Bariso: Beyond IQ: Why EQ - Emotional Intelligence Is Today’s Real Leadership Advantage

In this episode of Stratospheric Leaders, I am thrilled to be joined by Justin Bariso – one of today’s leading voices on emotional intelligence and the author of EQ Applied – a book I consider my leadership bible and one I gift to every client. A gifted writer, his popular weekly Inc.com column has attracted millions of readers.

What makes Justin remarkable isn’t just his mastery of the theory, but his ability to make emotional intelligence practical, relatable, and immediately usable. In our conversation, he doesn’t just explain EQ - he brings it vividly to life through real-world stories, powerful lessons, and actionable tactics.

At a time when the pace of change is relentless, Justin shows us why EQ and human-centred leadership aren’t just nice-to-haves - they’re the defining advantages of modern leadership.

Key Takeaways:

• Pause before you react. Emotional control begins with creating space between stimulus and response.

• Feelings aren’t facts — but they matter. Emotions drive behaviour; understanding them (yours and others’) is a leadership advantage.

• Empathy is a superpower. It can also be a potential source of burnout for leaders.

• Criticism is data. Extract the lesson.

• Kindness scales. Small gestures of respect and appreciation compound into loyalty and stronger relationships.

• Clarity beats emotion in conflict. Anchor conversations in facts, not feelings, to resolve tension.

• Lead with curiosity. It opens doors to solutions.

• Your emotional culture is contagious. As a leader, your mood sets the tone. Positivity and composure spread.

• Self-awareness is the foundation. You can’t manage what you don’t notice. Name your emotions to navigate them.

Show Links

Website - https://www.georgiedickins.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiedickins

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@GeorgieDickins-q7x

Transcript

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Hi, I'm Georgie Dickens, host of Stratospheric Leaders, the podcast where I get to have inspired conversations with extraordinary leaders from across capital markets. Join me to hear their game-changing strategies, the personal stories and powerful sound bites behind their stratospheric success. Every episode packed with wisdom, insight, and real-world lessons, the stuff they simply don't teach you in business school. If you want to elevate your game and most importantly those around you, this podcast is for you. Enjoy. In this episode of Stratospheric Leaders, I'm thrilled to be joined by Justin Bariso, a leading voice on emotional intelligence and author of EQ Applied, a book that has been a true Bible for me. Justin brings a refreshing lens to emotional intelligence. Yes, he shares the theory, but what makes this conversation so powerful is how he brings it to life with real-world stories, practical lessons, and actionable tactics. He doesn't just tell us what emotional intelligence is, he shows us how to use it. And in a world where AI is advancing at lightning speed, emotional intelligence and human-centered leadership have never been more critical. They are true super skills. I love this episode. And after listening, you'll not only understand your emotions better, you'll know how to make them work for you rather than against you. Enjoy. Justin, I am delighted to welcome you to an episode of Stratospheric Leaders. Uh, I first came across you when I uh someone gave me your book, EQ Applied. And I only have to look inside the book. We can see it scribbled, I've written in the margins. And this book is packed with, it's well, it's so interesting, it's packed with so many practical lessons, insights, frameworks. It is a book that I give to all my clients, and it's one that I I I've reread many times over. So thank you, first of all, for putting this into the world. Well, thank you, Georgie. That means a lot to me. Because as you know, since we've met and and gotten to know each other, I've just gained so much respect for you. We're always talking about the deep conversations we have, the thoughtful questions you have. You really make me think. So that really means a lot coming from you. Oh, thank you. Well, look, EQ applied emotional intelligence. I mean, many people will be familiar with IQ. I'm sure many people are familiar with the term EQ as well, but emotional intelligence might mean different things to different people. So you are a recognized leader, thought leader in emotional intelligence. What does it mean? Okay, so I have two definitions that I share. And the the very basic one is emotional intelligence is the ability to understand and manage emotions. So it's all about understanding how emotions affect us and our decision making, how emotions affect others, and then being able to actually do something about it. Um, but then the second definition I use is very practical, and it's make emotions work for you instead of against you. And hopefully that's self-explanatory, but to just kind of add context to that, we're humans, we're emotional creatures, that's a good thing. No one wants to be a robot, no one wants to work with or for a robot, but emotions can also get us into trouble sometimes. So it's all about just finding that balance between emotions and rational thought. It's not taking emotions out of the equation, which a lot of people say that to me. It's like, oh, emotional intelligence is taking emotions out. No, not at all. We need those emotions. It's just finding that balance with emotions so that emotions are causing you to do things, to make decisions, to say things that you're proud of later, as opposed to saying things or doing things that make you cringe later and you regret. And oh, I wish I had handled that differently. I love that. Making your emotions work for you and against you. So as I'm listening to you, it's not about stripping out emotions. And we we've got a lot of emotions, let's embrace them, but how do we make them work for us? Uh and what draw drew you to emotional intelligence? I'd love to hear how it all started. Sure. So funnily enough, I'd say I only learned the term maybe about a decade ago. So I'll I'll condense a very long story short. I worked um over a decade for a nonprofit in New York and brilliant experience. I gained so much. I got amazing training, I had amazing mentors that really taught me what I didn't know at the time was emotional intelligence. And then I moved to Germany. My wife is from here, so you have an American guy living in Germany, and I was working mostly with German executives, coaching, and consulting, and I was working a lot with helping them with emotional intelligence, but not knowing that's what it's called at the time. I was just helping them with their communication skills, with uh management skills. And then when I started writing for Inc Magazine, I got a column, and I was really given with some guidance, an amazing editor named Laura Lorber. Um, she gave me some guidance, but I was almost given carte blanche to explore different areas of management and that kind of thing. And so as I was writing advice that I knew worked from my own experience and from helping others, I was looking for scientific research to back it up, and I kept coming across this term, emotional intelligence. Like, oh, okay, this is what this is known as. And then the next step was I noticed there was kind of a gap in the literature because there was a lot of writing on emotional intelligence, but much of it was theoretical or was written very um academic. Um and so I found as I wrote about the very practical side of it, hey, this is what this looks like in real life, hey, here's an example of this, here's how you develop it, here's how you practice it. I kind of filled this gap in the niche without even meaning to. Um, and that became then my calling card. And, you know, more and more people were reading, that became an audience, that became a book, that became the pivot for my entire business, and here we are today. And I love that your calling card and and what you said there, I think it's really important. Like, this is what it looks like. So your book and what you speak about, yes, there's theory, but like this is what it looks like in action. And let me show you how to work, you know, make emotions work for you rather than against you. And I think, you know, often people want to know the how, and there's some theories out there that that give you the concept, but people want to know, well, how do I make, you know, how to give me, give me, give me the insights. Exactly. So one, I'm sure we'll get into more of this later, but just to illustrate that, for those who are listening, everyone tells us, and we learn at an early age to think before we speak, right? Think before you speak. We I teach my children that, I'm sure you teach your children that. But no one, or at least many of us, we don't teach the children how to think before you speak. And so, like a very, very simple tool that I don't take credit for. I learned it from a stand-up comedian, uh television personality, Craig Ferguson, some will know him. Um, and he said in a in a stand-up routine years ago, before you say anything, you have to ask yourself three questions. Does this need to be said? Does this need to be said by me? And does this need to be said by me now? I know you know this well because we've talked about it before, but I literally use that question almost every single day of my life. I use it at work, I use it at home with my family, and many times it you'll be surprised how hard it is to get through all three questions. But just having that little structure for whatever reason, it works better than just think before you speak. Because think before you speak, I think it's um, I don't know, it's just not enough for us. And and it's really hard to develop that habit. But when you know, okay, I'm gonna ask myself these three questions before I say something, then it gives you this little structure, you get used to it, and then it causes you or it teaches you to think before you speak. As you were speaking there, the the Navy SEALs quote came up for me like slowest, steady, steady is fast. And there's something there about power in the pause. And that pause might be three seconds. Like it doesn't, it we're not talking about a minute or two minutes, but those three questions does this need to be said? Does this need to be said by me? Does this need to be said by me now? Um, you know, we you and I both work with a lot of executives where sometimes, you know, the people are interrupting, emotions are driving the conversations. Those three questions bring such intentionality and consciousness and awareness, I think, around what we're saying, why we're saying it. It's slowing things down to being more purposeful. Yeah, a hundred percent. And like you said, it's so much intentionality because there's so many applications to it. It can be a leader leading a meeting that tends to speak first. And it's not necessarily that he or she is saying something they're gonna later regret, but they're stifling the conversation, they're stifling ideas, they're not inviting their other people to speak first. So, you know, that's another application for it. And there's just so many applications. And then for others, say, okay, maybe those three questions are not right. If you are that the type of person that finds it hard to speak up and and second guess yourself, then you need a different question. And for you, the question might be, will I regret not saying this? And then asking yourself that in the moment can kim you kind of the the motivation, the impetus to speak up and say something that actually does really need to be said right now. That's a really good question. I work with a lot of female leaders, and there are there are a number of them that don't, you know, our voice is our biggest asset. And actually, there are sometimes they have the great idea, the great thought, but because there can be a theme of perfectionism, there's like, okay, but is it fully formed? And so they're in their own head. Right. And then someone else says it, and you're like, damn it, that was what I was gonna say. So will I regret not saying this? That's a great question for people who probably might spend too much time in that pause and in their own head. Exactly. Exactly. And and what you also shared there around leaders, if they speak too, you know, they interject too quickly without giving it thought, that there, you know, it can stifle. And I think there are always, you know, second, third order consequences. The ripple, isn't there, to everything we say. So it's that that does this need to be said, does this need to be said by me? Does this need to be said by me now? It's really giving thought to what that ripple could be if you are saying something in the moment. Exactly. Because sometimes you get through the first two questions and it's just about the timing. Is this really the right place, context? Uh, are the right people in the room that I need to say this? Uh, should it be a one-to-one conversation that I say this? Um, and just then that third question just helps you to realize this definitely needs to be said by me, but it's not exactly the right time. Let me do this in an hour or tomorrow or whenever it is. And then, you know, finding that balance and again, not losing track of it. Maybe it means scheduling it in your calendar right then so you don't forget to do it because it is a conversation that needs to be had. But going back to what you said, George, it's all about being intentional with how you're how you're speaking and acting. I think the same also applies to emails. I've got several clients that that they they'll they'll sit on an email, they'll write it, you know, type it when they're, you know, when they're in their emotion, um, but then they'll leave it, they'll give it air to breathe to then go back to ask themselves probably those similar questions. Because once those words are out in the world, you can't always, you can't, you can't pull them back. And words could be ever green. So true. So true. I've done that myself, actually. And that's part of the reason why I developed these tools was to help me in those emotional moments. And then I started sharing them because they helped me so much I wanted to share them with others. Well, there's such I said, and those three questions for those listening, they are such incredible questions, and I many of my clients, and I always credit you, Justin, many of my clients use those, uh use those questions. And when we talk about emotional intelligence, Justin, what do you think makes it such a powerful force in leadership in today's world specifically? Yeah, I think it's a lot of things. It's um how it affects us, how others' perceptions um we may not be aware of. So we talk about emotional intelligence being broken down into four main domains or elements. Self-awareness, so how much we understand ourselves and and how we're being perceived by others, um, self-management, actually being able to do something about that and and kind of rein our emotions in, or to to inspire ourselves to actually, like we said a minute ago, to actually speak up. So sometimes it's it's it's using those emotions to actually get us to do something. Then there's social awareness, so understanding others and how uh emotions are affecting them and the decisions they're making in their communication style, if they're having a bad day, is something going on in their personal life that's causing them to act differently than from what I'm used to or from what I'm expecting. And then relationship management is kind of combining all of those to being able to I describe it as produce positive benefits from your relationships, which sounds kind of vague at first, but you know, we we all think of those relationships where uh we see we come across someone and we cringe. Oh, I don't want to deal with that person right now. No, that's not the effect we want. We want to have positive relationships with others. And so if you think about that, it affects so many areas of our life. Emotions, like we said, we're emotional creatures, so they underpin every decision that we make, they affect how we say things, they affect how others perceive how we say things, which sometimes are very, very different, opposite ends of the spectrum almost. And so I like to say emotional intelligence is almost everything, and almost everything is emotional intelligence, not to overestimate its importance, but just really showing that emotions affect almost everything that we say and do and hear from others. And so just keeping that in mind can really help us to see how much of an effect it has in our everyday life, and again, at home and at work. Yeah. And you you mentioned there it starts with self-awareness, and and I I strongly believe all good leadership starts with self-leadership, which is really about understanding ourselves from the inside out, and the perception piece you mentioned is also about understanding ourselves from the outside in. You know, what is the experience, you know, that that people have of working with us or connecting with us? And this that that perception gap can sometimes be Grand Canyon White, you know, for and and when I do 360 feedback with um with clients that I work with, it's really interesting. You know, blind spots are called blind for a reason. And it's how do you how do you close that gap? I mean, has you I mean, how perceptive do you think human beings are generally? Oh, not at all. Even the ones that are relatively good at it, like I work at this all the time. I eat, sleep, and breathe emotional intelligence. My family is tired of hearing me talk about it. But even with that, I'm surprised at sometimes the gap that I have, where something that I say lands completely the wrong way, uh, just because I don't know the other person well enough, or or I misjudge the other person, and I think that they're um not to label them as a type or a box, but I think they're gonna perceive something one way, and they perceive it a completely different way. And that was a it took me a long time not just to learn that, to be able to clarify that for myself. That's one reason why I love to write, as you know, clear writing equals clear thinking, and vice versa. And I always thought about, even when I wrote the book, I didn't, I don't think I hit this point hard enough. I talk about self-awareness and being um how emotions affect us and and understanding how emotions affect us. And I didn't talk enough about how others perceive you because it at first it, well, that's not self, that's others. No, but you we lack awareness in ourselves, which is why we don't see how the other person understands or or is um interpreting the things that we say. I remember in Lockdown, I watched the um, I think it's called The Last Dance. I think it's called The Last Dance, and it was about Michael Jordan, the Chicago Bulls. Big basketball fan. So Okay, so you you and and the interviewer spoke to, and I'm gonna forget the names of the very very uh famous players, but uh that what was it like working, you know, playing alongside Michael Jordan and then like bully, abrasive, aggressive, you know, all the words you probably wouldn't want to be described as. And they shared, I don't know if you remember the scene, they shared it with Michael, and clearly they had this, you know, this was you know, he he hadn't been prepared for what was coming. And he was generally, you know, genuinely taken aback because he said, but I didn't ask them to do anything I wouldn't have done myself. And I wanted them all to be a winner, but they didn't know his intent. Right, right. And that perception piece was was very much yet in in that that really for me illustrated where that that was a big perception gap. Yeah, and that's a perfect example in um building self-awareness and again acting with intention. Now, Michael Jordan may go back and say, and I think he may have even said this in the documentary, that he wouldn't change anything because his goal was to win and that led to winning. Um but we're all different, right? And we may not want to, I like to use this question, what will it cost? We may not want to win or achieve our goals at the cost of other people seeing us that way. And if that's the case, then understanding that, knowing that at a much earlier stage, maybe we're still able to achieve those goals a different way or with tweaking or adjusting. Like you said, even him just making his intent more well known, a pat on the back, like, hey, this is why I'm doing this, you know, that that could just be enough to close that gap between, okay, this is tough love, we're all after the same thing, versus, oh man, I hated working with that guy. Yeah. It it we yeah, it's and it's interesting. I once worked with a leader and we were doing a 360, and he said, I don't have any blind spots. And I I was like, interesting, because blind spots are blind for a reason, but it goes back to that piece you mentioned about self-awareness and our willingness to really hold the mirror up to see ourselves. And it has to be we have to be willing and I suppose open to seeing ourselves as well. Big time. And that's not the first leader that said that, and it won't be the last, but uh, as you well know, Georgie, all of us have them. All of us have them, and to to ignore that or to not be able to um accept that is already a huge weakness because if you you know that probably means uh he or she is unable to take constructive feedback or let's just call a spade a spade criticism. Sometimes we need criticism, and people like that are often not able to take that or at least not take it well. I'd love to pivot there because uh feedback, I look at if I look in the world of sports, feedback they say is the oxygen of champions. And if you're let's say a soccer player or uh we talk about basketball, uh, you know, you have feedback from the referee, the spectators, the the coach, your teammates, the opposition, you know, feedback is coming at you know from many, many different directions, and yet not everyone is great at taking feedback. And I see this in the the you know, in the leadership space as well. So, what's one technique you would use to coach someone uh who struggles with taking feedback? Like the definitely. So let me just you you mentioned referees, and I've never had this thought before until you just said this. We look at professional athletes, it's already something to be able to take feedback from your from your teammates and from coaches. Not all are able to do that well, right? And the better ones are, but now it made me think how many cannot take feedback from the referee? Because the whole thing about that is if they disagree, what happens? Often their emotions get into it. We see superstar players that may be coachable, but they can't take that feedback for the referee and they can't adjust to the way the referee is reffing the game, and it may cause them to lose the game because they can't make that adjustment in the moment uh to see, okay, this referee is referring it this way. I need to change slightly how I play, otherwise, the calls are gonna keep going against me, and that's that may cause us to lose the game because you're looking for every advantage, right? So I love that thought. Thank you for mentioning that because I've never thought about that before. Um, and then going back to the question so what tool? So um I have a tool that I like to call uh be a diamond cutter. Be a diamond cutter. And the whole thinking behind this is none of us likes to hear uh criticism, even if we're the most healthy individual that can take criticism well, in the moment we hate to hear it. Why? Because our emotions are attached to what we say, what we do, the work we've put in. So for someone to tell us it's not quite right, ah, it stings, it hurts. Um, and we compare this to a roughly mined diamond. Uh, diamond doesn't look good when somebody finds it in a rough. It's it's cruddy, it's rocky, you probably don't see much shiny to it. But then what can a professional diamond cutter do? He can, he or she can cut it, work it, polish it, in the end you have something beautiful, something very valuable. So you have to be a diamond cutter because when you hear that criticism, when you hear that feedback, uh it's not gonna feel good in the moment. Uh, you're gonna think, oh, this is ugly, I hate it, I don't want to listen to this. But the people that are able to cut, polish, make it look nice, um, and we use two questions to do that. Um if I were to take my emotions out of the situation or bring my emotions into balance, what's one thing I can take or learn from this feedback? And then second, okay, now how can I use that to make my work better, to clarify my communication? Um, because sometimes I would I would venture to say 70 to 80 percent there's some truth in that criticism. Even if it's not said or delivered well, there's some truth in it that you can learn something from. But for those, let's say 10, 20%, whatever, that it there's no truth in it, it's just a troll, whatever, it still helps you to understand how some people are receiving your message. And so that may still allow you to clarify the message. Now we're not saying to entertain trolls and that all criticism needs to be entertained, no. But most of the time it does. And most of the time you can learn something from it, even if the criticism is comes from a bad place, even if it's if it's 100% not right, you can still oftentimes learn something from it that can make your work better. Yeah, it's I I often you know speak about you know feedback not being eternal judgment, because you know not everyone's is is a great feedback giver. If it's not a paternal judgment, and to your point, there's always gonna be a seed of truth, even if it's and often the feedback, and I love what you said there. If I take my emotions out, what is one thing I can learn? Because that's taking ourselves, it's removing ourselves from the situation. I know when I was in the corporate world, and if someone said, Geordie, I want to give you some feedback, already my emotions have been triggered. I'm not, I'm gonna get fired, what have I done wrong? You know, I'm my I'm in my own head. I'm not being the rational, logical version of myself. And so if I take my emotions out, what is one thing I can learn and what can how can I use that to make me better? Um, and I suppose feedback to your point is it's giving us um uh insight into the perception of us because even if it's not true, fully or 100% true, there is a perception of us that that that piece of feedback is um is being experienced by others. Exactly. And I love what you the experience you just shared, because it shows that receiving and giving feedback is two completely different things. You were a very emotionally strong and healthy individual that you were able to cut those diamonds when you were receiving that feedback, even though it hurt at first. And as soon as you heard that word feedback, it kind of triggered you emotionally, right? So now we have to remember if we're the ones giving that feedback, not everyone's gonna be able to do that. And even the ones that are are still gonna get triggered in the moment. So, how can we frame our feedback in a different way? Maybe we don't say that at all. Can I can I share some feedback with you? Because we know how that's gonna affect 90% of the people that we speak to. Instead, we have this mentality of how can I help? That's what's going on in our in our mind. Not that how can we give feedback, how can I help this person? And then we frame the conversation completely differently. If it's feedback on a presentation, for example. If there wasn't at all, like, hey, I want to thank you for that presentation you gave yesterday. Okay. Can I ask you, how did you feel about it? And now, okay, how perceptive the person is, maybe they still kind of tell what's coming, but it kind of can kind of lower their guard and giving them the chance to speak first. Maybe they know, oh my goodness, I struggled so much with it. I hated how it came out. That already puts the the uh the conversation in a better place. Um, and then you know, we have more tools of how to guide that conversation, sharing experiences about things that we did that we hated about presentations in the past, where we really, you know, um we really had a major fail that can then lower the guard more. Oh, that there's vulnerability there, they can relate to it. Um, asking them permission. Can I share one thing that I wish somebody had shared with me long ago? Asking them permission now, they're they're they're feeling more in control of the situation. And now you've completely changed how you give feedback that makes it much more easy to pallet and something that someone may actually take and apply in their work. And interesting what you shared there is the how you do it, because it could be the same message, but the delivery could be two very two very different deliveries, and how it's received, you know, one is very could be very open and receptive, the other could be more, you know, I'm triggered. And it's interesting when I was listening to your tools there, because my children at school were taught, and I've shared this with clients, the www EBI, what went well, you know, and then EBI, even better if. So there's always it's always trying to find, you know, there's there's something, even if it's something small, something that that that you can give praise to, www, what went well, but the EBI, even better if, because it's how do you how do you make it growth oriented? Because we're all human beings, we're all evolving. Um, and one of the things that that that came up for me when I was sharing with you about, you know, when someone says, Georgie, can I give you some feedback? Um, I could go into my own head, and I I think of that as emotional hijacking. And we'll all have moments where we're emotionally hijacked. Someone cuts us up a nut in the car. Um I my children can lead me to being, you know, when they don't put stuff in the dishwasher, that can, yeah, I can get emotionally hijacked then. But how do you how do you advise people to self-regulate in that moment? Because our emotions aren't always helpful. Right. So the first thing to say is you can't. You can't self-regulate in that moment at the beginning. You can over time. And so what I really recommend is because we're not used to doing that, we the reason why our emotions get hijacked, well, besides the fact that, you know, going into the scientific explanation of the amygdala kind of overdriving uh those other more rational parts of our brain, in addition to that, we've built habits that we've done over and over for sometimes at least months, more times, years. Like someone cuts you off on the highway, you probably react the same way every time. And so that's why you react that way now. Yeah. So it starts with recognizing what you've done that you wish you had done differently. Okay. Um, and so asking yourself, um, we have a tool that we call the emotional post-mortem. So after you have said or done something that you regret, take time uh later that day, the next day, take 15 to 20 minutes and journal about it. Ask yourself, why did I do that action? Um, what led to it? What things do I have control over that I could change in the future? What things don't I have control over? And um how can I deal with those things? Now you do that after one, two, three times, it's not gonna have much effect. I'll be honest with you. You do that five, six, seven, eight times, and eventually now it's still helpful to write it down, but even we you might be surprised how many emotional hijacks we have in the course of a day or a week or a month. And now you don't always have to write them down, but you're constantly thinking, ah, I wish I didn't handle that that way. What can I do differently? Now, over the course of months, um, maybe even as early as weeks and definitely years, you're slowly changing your reaction. You're changing that habitual response. You're actually changing how your amygdala um responds in those situations, and you're not feeling hijacked to the same degree, which allows you to actually control your responses better. And that habitual response it takes time, doesn't it? I mean, I often people want a quick fix, they want you they want to have a tool, and then you know, within 24 hours, and that habitual response that's taken for many people years, decades. It's so entrenched, and that journaling or or even just asking ourselves the questions, you know, why did I react why did I react that way? It goes back to what you were sharing earlier about that self-awareness, it's bringing insight, it's putting attention on things, and so it is about that emotional post-mortem, unpacking it to understand what was the trigger. Uh and I a question you won't share with me, which I loved, you know, are my reactions helping or harming me? Um, because you know, if they're harming us and others, that's not helpful. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and and like you said, it it takes time for these tools to work. You will see some immediate changes, I think, um, when you when you apply some more than others, but like something like this, it takes time. But don't what's the right word? I don't want to say underestimate. Um let's put it this way the sooner you get started, the sooner you're gonna see big changes. You know, uh it it just you know how it is, like even raising kids, right? We all say the same cliche, oh, they grow up so fast. Well, yeah, to us they do, but that is the same long process for every child, is the same process for us growing up, and it's the same thing with these tools. Yes, it seems, oh, it's so much, oh, it takes so much time, but if you start today, in one month from now, you're gonna be much better than you were a month ago. In six months from now, in a year from now, and five years from now, you're you will look back and say, Oh my goodness, what was I doing back then? I I'm a completely different person. And so I say, just start using them and start practicing, and you're gonna see those changes over time. I can't remember what the proverb is, so I'm not gonna now speak it as as it was, but as it was written, but it was about the best time to plant a tree was like 15 years ago, but the second best time is today. I love it. Because if you haven't done it 15 years, I and I'm I'm paraphrasing, and it's but it is the point of you know, change starts now, it's and it it takes time, but it's about that incrementalism, isn't it? You know, every every time you're spending time reflecting, you're building awareness, you're ex you're bolstering that muscle. Exactly. We um I had the the privilege of having um, I don't know if you know Anne-Laure Le Kumpf. She's um a newly minted neuroscientist, she's the author of a relatively new book, Tiny Experiments. And we had the chance to interview her inside my um community recently. And um one of the concepts she talks a lot about in the book and that really resonated with with our people was time anxiety. And it's exactly what you mentioned right now, just feeling like, oh, it's too late for me to start this. Um everyone else that that is successful at this did this already or has done this already, has been working at this for years. But like you said, some many times we're wrong about that, number one, because many people that end up being successful got a much later thought uh uh start than you thought. Um, and then just like you said, second best time is today. If you start today, you'll be surprised at the advancement you can make in a relatively short period of time. And I it doesn't have to be a big direct debit of time, does it? Reflection doesn't, we don't need to spend an hour journaling, even if it was a minute or five minutes, that is still gonna be transformative over time. Exactly, exactly. And that's the one biggest, I might be jumping the gun a little bit because we we've talked about this in the past, but we've talked about what's one practice that people can can do that will immediately have effects on their emotional intelligence. And that one practice for me is journaling. Because again, going back to clear writing, clear thinking, doesn't have to be long, five, ten, fifteen minutes in the morning. And if you're not sure where to start, uh ask yourself that question. What's a recent time where my emotions worked against me? Um, in contrast, what's a recent time when my emotions worked for me? Because then we see you're what you're starting to do is you're starting to identify, go back to self-awareness, right? You're starting to identify your strengths that you can continue to leverage. If something worked for you, you need to lean into that and do more of that. If something worked against you, that's something that needs to be addressed. And you have to ask yourself, okay, what led to that? Why? What can what can I change? What can I avoid? What can I what do I need to embrace? Uh, what are the difficult conversations I need to have with myself or with others to address this challenge, this problem? But I think journaling is the single best thing. And again, uh not all of us are writers. This doesn't come easy for all of us. Start small. Start with one question, five minutes. Everyone can do five minutes. And I promise you, you're gonna see results if you do that consistently. Yeah, I I've been journaling for probably 10, 15 years, and I have to say it's been transformative. And sometimes I don't even know what I'm gonna write. So I'll write on my notebook, I'm not sure what I'm gonna write today, and I'll just see where it goes. And I what I've really had to learn with as a recovering perfectionist, what I had to learn with journaling is it doesn't matter if it grammatically not perfect, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make perfect sense, it's just to it's just to let that pen keep going and to go with flow and then go back and reflect on what you've written. And there's it's not there's no right or wrong. You can't get it wrong. It's just about getting started. Exactly. And there's another technique for those who are listening. Again, if you don't have the questions, and you can find questions online, right? You and me, we offer questions like to our clients that they can use. But if if you don't know uh where to start, start by transcribing. Um, find someone, think of a goal, something you're trying to work on, someone you're uh something you're trying to get better at. Find someone that you know uh online, an author, um, someone that you follow on social media that is good at this thing, and just start transcribing what they are saying. Because when you do that, I kinda I call this my cheat code, you know. In the movies, they have these movies, sci-fi movies, where you plug into a computer and you can download information and now all of a sudden you can speak a language or you have a skill. Well, it doesn't work 100% like that, but it's as close as you can get in real life because as you start transcribing things that others are saying that have already achieved goals that you want, you start to emulate the thinking that gets you to those goals. And you will find that it actually changes your thinking. So that's another technique you can use in journaling is just start transcribing. And uh, this is a different use case, but we're in industry we're allowed to do this. People that start copywriting advertising, they are trained to copy the best advertisements in history. Advertisements from uh Apple, advertisements from Gary Halbert. And why do they do that? Because as they start copying those advertisements, not that they will say the exact same words, but it trains them to think differently and to develop the skill. So that's another technique. I love that. I love that, and also it's looking at people who've achieved the goals you want. How do they think? You know, that there's something there about educating yourself on how they think. The other technique when I first started journaling, and it was the three times five minutes, and it was I journal for five minutes, I'd then spend five minutes reflecting what I'd written, and I'd underline or highlight words that stood out. Then I do another five minutes going deeper on the words or the sentences that I'd underlined because it was really interesting. When I read back my words, I'm like, well, that's interesting, or that sentence is worthy of exploration. And that was like a 15-minute exercise that I found very, very valuable. And when you shared earlier on around uh in that reflection, you talk at you talked about people understanding their strengths. My son's got a uh a rugby podcast, and he speaks to a lot of rugby um international players, and they talk about how do you make your strengths super strengths? Because often we focus on the areas we want to develop, which is important if it's if you know if those areas are necessary. But what if we can make our strengths super strengths? And that that piece, I was like, wow, that's yeah, I was, you know, certainly when I grew up in the corporate world, it was, you know, most of the feedback was spent looking at the developmental areas and the strengths for the strengths. But what about what are the marginal gains if you can you know exercise those more, even by like one percent? I love that. I I'm making notes here too. I wrote down www. And I'm writing this one down too because just having these short phrases, maxims make a big difference in being able to apply this. So turn strengths into super strengths. I love that because we all know that deep down that if we can leverage those strengths and we can make them uh even stronger, that's gonna benefit us. But just that that short maxim, turn strengths into super strengths, I think that can go a long way with actually clarifying that this is something we need to do and keeping it top of mind, let me keep doing this. I love it. And when we think about strengths, many not there's a number of leaders I've worked with before and also work for where you know they one of their strengths is empathy. And I think every strength, yeah, yes, it's about making it super strength, but every strength, if it's overextended, it can there can be a shadow side to that. So if we think about empathy being, you know, part of emotional intelligence, what is an effective way to for leaders to practice empathy, but without you know, without overextending themselves? Definitely. So, first of all, all of us, you know, land different places on the empathy spectrum, as we like to call it. Some of us are very naturally empathetic. Uh, some of us really struggle with showing empathy for others. And um, there's actually pros and cons to both that. Just because you lack empathy doesn't mean it's always going to be a weakness for you. There's situations where that's gonna be helpful for you. But what I like to describe it is emotionally intelligent empathy because wherever you land on that spectrum, you have to find a way to keep it in balance. So for someone like myself, um, I'm a very highly agreeable person. Uh, it causes me emotional stress to disagree with someone, to say no to someone. It's it doesn't mean I can't do it, but it's more stressful for me than someone who's very low on the agreeableness spectrum. Um, and because of that, I'm a very or or related to that, I would describe myself as a very high empathy individual. And for those who are listening today, um, if you identify the same way, you know that um it's very draining. The empathy can be a strength in many situations because you understand others, you can relate to them, you probably form relationships and bonds more quickly than those who don't. They take, generally speaking, longer to develop those bonds. And again, doesn't mean they can't do it, but they have to do it in different ways. Uh but the shadow side is it's very draining. We see this often in um professions like doctor, more nurse than doctor, actually. Yeah. Nursing, um, teachers that constantly have to be on that care so much about their students. I don't know how it is in the UK, but it's hard to find in the US a teacher that has been teaching, especially young children, for more than five to seven years nowadays, because it's so easy for them to burn out. It's so hard for them to keep up that level of empathy. And so, first of all, identifying that about yourself. Now you can look for ways to set boundaries. Uh, it may be if you're in the corporate world, it may be um not scheduling meetings back to back because of how draining they can be on you, because you're feeling the emotions of others when you're in those meetings. It can be delegating certain work if you're a leader. Uh, you want to be have a certain level of involvement with all your direct reports, but there may be certain things that you can delegate help for them or training for them. It doesn't always have to be you. And so these are the kind of techniques when you realize that you're a very high-empathy individual and that the the more you give yourself, the more it's gonna drain you. Kind of picking and choosing where you're gonna direct that empathy because you can't turn it on and off. If you're with a person, you're gonna feel it, and it's gonna be draining after a certain amount of time. Now, where are you on the uh what about those that are on the opposite end? Um, if if you find it hard, and I find that many who are on the opposite end don't realize they're on the opposite end, but it comes out, and working with a coach like you, uh, Georgie, it comes out that I don't understand what's wrong with these people. Um, uh what's the problem here? You know, why can't they see this? Okay, well, now they're lacking empathy because even if it's hard for us to be able to relate to how a person responds in a certain situation, let's make it more concrete. Why are they struggling so much with this problem, with giving this presentation? Giving presentations is easy. Okay, maybe it is for you, but for them it's different. So, what's your problem? What really challenges and overwhelms you? That's what you have to relate to. You don't you don't think about what they're struggling with and how easy that is. You think about okay, they're struggling with this. What do I really struggle with? Oh, well, I really struggle with uh when my spouse is sick and I still have to do this, this, and this. Okay, that feeling, relate that to the feeling they're dealing with as they develop this presentation. And now you can start to build empathy. So it's recognizing kind of where you are on the spectrum of empathy, which takes time, um, but then um using different techniques now to bridge those gaps or to keep your empathy in balance. For if it's if you if you have so much empathy, then setting your boundaries, if if you find that you lack empathy, finding ways to build it and to exercise that empathy muscle, so to speak. So it goes back again to that self-awareness, first of all, like that emotionally emotional intelligent empathy, recognizing where you are. There's a continuum, we're not all at the same place, and using different techniques to bridge that gap. And I and I love what you said there about because people will all have our own challenges. Maybe if one person is speaking on a panel or doing a presentation, others are much more comfortable with that. So there's a judgment, and as human beings, we're very judgmental. Um, but it's again, but you'll have your own struggles and challenges in other areas. So understanding what that feels like for you and recognizing you know that person will be feeling a similar emotion in that situation. Exactly. And like, so let's go back to empathy for a second. That's not the end of the world. Oh, I discover, I never knew this, I lack empathy, this is horrible. How can I be a good leader if I lack empathy? No, this is actually, it can be a strong point in certain situations because the um leaders that lack empathy, at least in certain situations, um, they find it easier to push people out of their comfort zone, which to an extent is good. It's a good thing, yes. Exactly, because for us very high empathy individuals, it's very hard for me to push someone out of their comfort zone. I'll just let the I don't want to make them do this, it's fine like that. And then they never grow unless I push myself to push them. So again, it's not good or bad. Um, these personality traits are gonna have pros and cons. Um, these these they're they're not all personality traits, but these traits about our personality, maybe that's a bet better way to describe them, are all gonna have pros and cons. Like you said, Jordi, self awareness, recognizing where you are. That you can leverage the strength and mitigate the weakness. Yeah. And and when we, you know, when I work with leadership teams, I always speak about the importance of cognitive diversity. You know, you don't want to be in an echo chamber. And I've always thought about diversity in many different aspects. And I hadn't really thought about it in the sense of how you shared it there about personality traits. Because someone, if they're lower on the empathy, they'll they'll likely push you outside your comfort zone. That's a good thing. So it's diversity across across many different pillars here. You talked about setting boundaries. I am somebody who is, I'm a people pleaser. There, I mean, it's an I I've struggled to say no to things in the past. Any advice you can give on how to say no elegantly? Oh, yeah. Okay. So there's a couple of tools we've used in the past. One of them is first identifying why you want to say no. Because for someone, I'm the same, by the way. So for someone like you and me, Georgie, it's hard for us to say no because we want to build the relationship. We're we're high in the agreeableness spectrum, probably, meaning that we value social harmony, we value the relationship. Um, so identifying that we need to say no things, number one, yes, for our own boundaries. Number two, um, I like asking myself the question if I say yes to this, what am I saying no to? Because you're saying no to something. Um, if you don't say no to this, you're saying no to something else that you may want to do instead of this, or that's gonna fall through the cracks at the expense of this. So recognizing that first, that you're always saying no. It's just if you're falling into saying yes to things that you don't really want to say yes to, then you're saying no to bigger things that that you may not want to say no to. So that's the first step. The second step, and I don't um uh I learned this from uh a psychologist, Dr. Nicole LePera, um, and she has this formula. Now let me see if I'm gonna get it right. Um I believe it goes like this the no, the appreciation, and the well-wishes. And I might be getting that backwards. I can link you too, um, because I've written about this before too, but I haven't used that in a while because I've gotten better at saying no to things. But um basically it's being direct, not apologizing. We're not sorry that we can't do this because it we just can't. Um, but appreciation, thank you so much for thinking of me for this. Thank you for asking me about this. I can't do it because uh you'll always have to say because I can't do it right now, I can't manage this right now. Depending on the level of the relationship, if it is something we really someone we really care about or a relationship we want to nurture, we might explain why. I can't do it because of XYZ. Um, but I wish you the best with this. Um, I know you're gonna find the right fit for this, etc. etc. And just having that little formula, I used to keep the formula uh on my desktop or or you know, easy to access. And when I had to respond and know to things, I would use it, you know? And then, like I said, practice doesn't make perfect. I don't believe practice makes perfect, practice makes better. And so as you continue to practice it, then uh you get better at it and then become second nature after a while. Well, that's another maxim. Practice makes better, because perfection doesn't exist. So I love that. Practice makes better, but no appreciation, well-wishes. Okay, I'm gonna have a post-it note of that on my uh on my uh PC. And um when you speak about boundaries, no is a choice, isn't it? No is a choice, it's honouring ourselves, and yes, it's a magnitude of commitment. Uh, and it's interesting with some of the female leaders I work with, you know, that they're time poor because there's a paucity of time, they're working, they're busy, often many of them busy parents, yet they'll be the ones that'll say, yes, I'll do the committee, school committee, because they feel they should. Um and so it's just an you know, it's an important thing. No is a choice, and yes, there's a magnitude of commitment, and it's okay to honor ourselves. And that's not being selfish, it's being selfist. It's making sure we're protecting our space and our time, which are some of our well, they're non-renewable resources. Exactly. And again, it just goes back to being thoughtful, making intentional decisions, because if we've gotten into that habit over the course of years, it's really hard to change, right? But some of these tools, asking these questions, embracing that pause, can help us now to slow down and make a decision that we're not gonna regret later. Because what's worse than saying, Okay, yeah, I'm gonna lead that committee, and then uh the night before, you know, something big at work, but the school function is the next day, and now you're committed to both. Now you have now you have to say no to one of them, right? And then that's gonna bring more um emotional stress and it's gonna affect your emotional energy. So again, it goes back to being thoughtful and intentional. It's gonna help you to make decisions that are more in line with your values. Another phrase that I love. Never make a permanent decision based on a temporary emotion. You know, we're stuck in that moment, I don't want to say no, oh, someone needs to do this, and it should be me. Say yes, and then we regret it for the next six months to six to twelve months, you know. So try to find ways using these tools to embrace that pause and make more thoughtful, intentional decisions that we don't regret later. And and I and I I it that's so important. Never make a permanent decision on a temporary emotion because our our emotions are fleeting and it they can feel very when we're triggered, you know, it could be good emotions, and equally there can be we're frustrated, we're angry, we become irrational, like that people aren't gonna see the best versions of us, and we're not gonna be putting our best our best foot forward. And when it comes to emotional intelligence, like there are there are there's such a you know a wide ranging of skills from incompose control to reality testing to empathy. In your experience, you know, if you were to advise leaders, or what is the what is the one you know, the one aspect of emotional intelligence for them to work on that that has could have the greatest impact, have that amplification impact? What what would you what would you tell them? So before I answer that, this is you you gave me pause when I read this question. So elaborate a little bit on what you mean by reality testing, because I found that uh I I hadn't heard that that expression before. So okay, so reality testing, what does that mean to me? I suppose I think of it like emotionally hijacking. Are we seeing things in a rational and logical place, or are we seeing things from that emotional place? And to me, there's a different, if we're wearing glasses, there's a different lens there. So reality testing is being more um we're we're we're we're more looking at data and we're coming from a place of logic rather than emotion. Got it, got it. I love that. Okay, so so I did give some thought to this, and uh it's a hard question to answer because, like you said, it's it's so widespread. Emotional intelligence is almost everything, right? So um, but I think empathy is really in my experience as I look at leaders especially, I think this is the one that really needs to be um worked on and brought into balance. And it goes back to several different things we've said in the course of this conversation. It goes back to that self-awareness is also connected to empathy because we can't fully understand the impact and the perception, the impact we have on others and the perception others have of us unless we also have that empathy. Now, it goes back to what we said a few minutes ago, or maybe we're lacking that empathy, and we have no idea how our words are coming off. Um, we have no idea, going back to the Michael Jordan example, that by tweaking not what we say, but how we say it, how we deliver it, going back to the feedback uh portion of this conversation, and you can see how many times empathy plays a role or has a bearing on all these different aspects of emotional intelligence. So if I had to pick one, I'd say that's one to really work on. And I'd say that also influences the others. It influences your impulse control because if you can have empathy and know that if you say this in this way, it's gonna land in this way and it's gonna affect your relationship in that way, then you're gonna work harder at compot controlling the impulse and pausing before you say something or changing the way you say it. Um, and it's going back to reality testing, perception, it's gonna affect that as well. So they're all important, but if I had to pick one, I would say start with empathy. I love that. And you mentioned how emotional intelligence is widespanning. How do you see the role of emotional intelligence evolving in leadership over the next, you know, over the next decade? Okay, well, we're living in the age of AI, right? It's a very interesting time because this is a nascent technology that's just exploding. I think I don't think the internet exploded as quickly as this has. And so it's changing everything, not just on a daily basis, like almost it seems sometimes like an hourly basis, right? And people are using AI as therapists, and people are using AI to hone their written communication and this and that. Um, and I just read a headline or an article recently that um uh companies are going more old school with their interview process and starting to remove some of the AI tools because people are using, I'm sorry, they're they're starting to change their processes because people are using AI to complete all the exercises and essays and all this, and then they're coming in the interview process and they're seeing a completely different uh person. So they're trying to integrate the interview process early earlier on. So, all that considered, AI changing everything, I think emotional intelligence is only gonna increase in importance. Because when you can, first of all, you can use AI to help develop your emotional intelligence and to kind of identify some of those blind spots. So that's one thing. Um, but as people use these AI tools more, they're gonna lack that genuine emotional connection because AI can imitate emotional connection, but it can't replace it. It that's one thing AI can't do. So I think a leader and and just even team members' ability to relate to other people on an emotional level to be able to self-regulate to there's one other that I thought of. Uh oh, and also things like this, where you're having real conversation. You know, I've been hearing more recently um AI podcast episodes where it's two AIs actually speaking to each other, right? So that's just gonna increase the value of genuine conversations like this, genuine one-to-one connection between uh people at work, community building, whether it be in the workplace or outside of the workplace, all those things I think are gonna grow exponentially in importance in the same way AI has grown exponentially in these last few years. I completely agree with you, and I think that human leadership becomes a competitive advantage. I really, I really do. And it's interesting, I hadn't heard that some interviewer, you know, interviews are going back to old school, but that makes perfect sense because to your point, AI can imitate, but it can't replace that human connection and it can't replace how I feel in this conversation. And uh so I it's it is going to be an interesting one to watch. And I also look at leadership teams and those that are high-performing leadership teams, trust is is underpinning, is underpinning that team, and that comes from that social connection and you know, building that psychological safety because your actions, your behavior, how you say things and how you make that other person feel. So it is gonna be it is gonna be interesting. Now, look, this has been such well, whenever we speak, I come away making copious notes and I you are so energizing. I always leave feeling up levels, lighter, and just um more elevated. And how can people learn more about you? I mean, EQ Applied is a book, as I said, I will I will keep telling everyone about this book because it is my Bible, or one of my Bibles. But how can people more learn more about your work? So um I have a website on the same name, EQ Applied. So just search EQ Applied, you'll find it. We have tons of free resources and tools available there. Um for those that are willing to go a little bit deeper. Uh the the newest big thing, which is I'm going all in, is building my own emotional intelligence community. And we're targeting leaders, um, those that are building the culture at work. So they're not just developing emotional intelligence for themselves, but they're developing it in their teams, and they want a structured way to do that. Um, and then uh emotional intelligence coaches like myself that are helping others, tons of tools that make their job easier. It's called the Lighthouse. Um, and very symbolic. Uh the guiding light for leaders and change makers at work. It's a beacon, it's something that that um not only can give uh you leaders guidance, but you leaders become a part of that community. And that's the biggest thing since I started this just four or five months ago. I'm learning so much from the ones in the community, and we're learning from each other. And it's this peer-to-peer learning that I didn't necessarily anticipate, but I love. Um, and so the members themselves are beacons of emotional intelligence. So check out the lighthouse. I think that would be something those in your community might be especially interested in. But um, yeah, check out EQ Applied. Hopefully, there's something there uh that they will find useful and helpful for them in their emotional intelligence journey. And with the Lighthouse, is that on the EQ Applied website, or how can people find out more about that? So it's a it's a tab right there on the website um and it explains everything there. It's a work in progress because I just started it five months ago. So we're it's learning evolving. I think I'm going to um you know go up another level and filming some some new videos, but that what's there will give them a really good um feeling for what they'll get if they join. And and I want to just circle back to what I said at the beginning. With the book, with you know, when I read your work, it's so tactical, and that that's to me what differentiates your work. There's other books that are very theoretical, which is great. It's important to understand the theory. People want to understand the how-to. And this book, you can open it on a single page and you take something valuable away. I mean, some people want to read it front to back, others will want to just dive into certain chapters. So, yes, it's a great read. Thank you, Justin. It has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you, Georgie. It always is. And uh, anytime you're available, I'm available too because I would love to continue the conversation. Brilliant. Thank you.