#12 Sandeep Sahai: Put Your Hand Up – Infectious Passion, Perspective & Building Clearwater Analytics

In this episode, I’m joined by Sandeep Sahai, CEO of Clearwater Analytics (NYSE: CWAN) - a truly disruptive force shaping the future of financial technology. Clearwater operates on the cloud, providing clients with a comprehensive, real-time view of their portfolios and enabling global execution - processing and reporting on an extraordinary $8.8 trillion in assets daily as of December 31, 2024.

What makes this conversation special isn’t just the scale of Clearwater’s innovation - it’s the heart behind the leadership. From his grandmother teaching him chess at nine years old, Sandeep learned to think about others - to understand what drives people and why. That early lesson became a cornerstone of his leadership philosophy: If your employees are happy and engaged, they’ll build great products. They’ll take care of clients. And when clients succeed, shareholders succeed.

Throughout his journey, Sandeep has been driven by curiosity, hard work, and humility - and yes, he credits a touch of luck too. In our discussion, we explore the golden threads of his career, his fascination with technology, and how Generative AI is set to transform the way we live, work, and connect - just as every great technological leap before it has done throughout history.

This is a conversation that blends humanity, innovation, and vision - a masterclass in what it means to lead with care, courage, and conviction.

Key Takeaways:

• Understanding the global perspective is crucial for success.
• There are many versions of truth; perspective matters.
• Curiosity and open-mindedness lead to better conversations.
• Put your hand up for opportunities, even if uncertain.
• Success is defined by personal happiness and family well-being.
• Infectious passion is essential for effective leadership.
• Work-life balance is challenging but necessary for fulfillment.
• Generative AI will transform how we work and interact.
• Transparency in communication fosters trust and engagement.

Show Links

Website - https://www.georgiedickins.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiedickins

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@GeorgieDickins-q7x

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Georgie Dickens, host of Stratosperic Leaders, the podcast where I get to have inspired conversations with extraordinary leaders from across the capital markets. Join me to hear their game-changing strategies, the personal stories and powerful standbit behind the Stratosphere success. Every episode packed with wisdom, insight, and real-world lessons, the stuff they simply don't teach you in business school. If you want to elevate your game, and most importantly, those around you, this podcast is for you. Enjoy. What a joy it was to record an episode of Strategy Spanit Leaders with Sandeep Sahai, who is the CEO of Clearwater Analytics, now rebranded as C1. He is just so insightful and interesting. And the lessons shared, I mean, I was trying to take now notes of all the great lessons, and I stopped writing in the end because I'm like, you know what, I'm going to have to go back and listen to this episode many times over. We covered so many areas and really looked at the human side of leadership. This is one you're not going to want to miss, and this is one you do need a notebook for because I promise you this there are going to be some real golden nuggets that you're going to uncover in this one. So enjoy, well, I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. Sandy, I am delighted to welcome you to an episode of Stratospheric Leaders. And in preparation for our conversation today, I have watched many videos when you being interviewed. And one thing that really struck me is you have such warmth and this wonderful engagement style, and you're really easy to listen to. It's like I want to hear more, which is great because we're on a podcast episode, and so people do get to uh get to hear from you. And we are going to discuss um and hear about clear water analytics. Before we do that, I always get to I love to get a sense of who is the person when they're not in the seat that they sit in. So what was your first ever job? First ever let's say paid job, and what did it teach you about life? Yeah, interesting question. My first job, uh, I went to business school and uh I got a job at an industrial conglomerate, a really big company out in India. So I did engineering in India, did business school in India, and so I got this job at this conglomerate. I was so excited about it, except that it started two months later. So then I there was another person company which wanted to hire me, and I said, Look, I can come and join you for a month, which is kind of daft. I never thought they would accept that. And they said, Well, that's cool, come join us for six weeks, then you can go join the other company. And um, their pitch was, I guess, that it'll be that interesting that I won't join the other company. And so the truth is I went there for for six weeks and fell in love. So then I never joined the other company. So I stayed on with this company. It worked, it worked, and uh, but um, you know, it was uh chief of staff. So I was a chief of staff for a technology company, and technology was just starting to be a big deal at that time. Um, but chief of staff, um, it was just such a fantastic job. Um, and the one thing it taught me really was you have to understand the perspective from the very top, what matters. So I think when you have look at other people who have started at different points, sometimes they think about, you know, the job they're doing, and that's obviously super important. Uh, but just having the global perspective, I think, is really important. And um, I got that um when I was chief of staff. The other thing I sort of learned there, Georgie, was that you know, there are very many versions of truth, and you have to be rigorous in understanding um what drives businesses. So, yeah, those two things I think were very early learnings. I was chief of staff for a year and a half, and it was just one of the most um interesting jobs I've had. And I love what you shared there because you said it's really important to understand that global perspective, you know, understand the perspective at the top. Let's hope the people at the top understand, because but it's you know, understand that perspective, and and you said there there can be many truths, and and often I speak to leaders who um emphasize the importance of curiosity. You know, don't assume you know all the answers, you know, really bring that curio curiosity and open-mindedness to conversations. Yeah, and you know, people aren't. I don't feel people go into a meeting and do something wrong. But it is totally and very consistently there that you go to a meeting and there are five people and they walk away with three different opinions about what got discussed. And I think the issue is perspective. If you don't put yourself in the shoes of the person you're talking with and working with, I don't think you quite understand uh what's going on. So I think people sometimes say, oh, this person purposely misunderstood. No, it's not, it's their perspective. And if you don't think about the human you're dealing with or talking with or working with, I I think you you lose. And um I saw that very early on in my career, and uh it's still super important to me about you know, what does Georgie care about? I care. I really care about what you might think about and what you might be thinking about, and then we can have a better conversation. It's not about what you want, it's about how do you converse with people, how do you think about them. So, yeah, the truths are important, but put in the right perspective, I feel. It's it's it's interesting because I I I wear glasses. Well, I and and if you put my glasses on, you'd see the world very differently to how I see it. And and you mentioned that it's really important to put ourselves in the shoes of others, and I think often people don't do that. We're in a rush to get the results, and actually to take that time to put yourself into the shoes of others, it leads to better decisions, better outcomes. Yeah, I'm I mean, I when growing up I used to play chess. So, you know, my grandmother was a chess player, and she used to play with me when I was nine and ten. And it's all about what's the other person thinking, also. You can't just say, I am doing this because of this. You gotta think about the other person, and and a lot of my life is about trying to figure out what drives who and why, and what's good for clients and why is it good for them, what's good for teams you work with, and why is it good for them. So I that's sort of a core philosophy I have about trying to figure out how people will behave. And often, you know, it's not that hard to predict how people will work if you care, if you really care to understand how people think. The piece to underscore there is if you care, if you really care. Um and you mentioned there, you know, understanding what are people's drivers? People have different motivations and drivers. So it's and people are have patterns. It's interesting. When you start to observe, you you you do then see um patterns of behavior. And and I and I and I want to, you know, you mentioned that that you know, that young boy of nine or ten who played chess with his grandmother. What did you dream of becoming? And yeah, what did you dream of becoming at that age? You know, it's interesting. I always wanted to be in the corporate world. I was very fascinated by it. I was always very fascinated by technology. Uh, you know, in those days, you did not have a VCR if you remember what that is, and you're too young to remember, but there was something called a VCR. And I used to be just fascinated with technology and and the corporate world about people who made it and could make things happen around the world. In those days, these VCRs came from Japan, and I was like, wow, somebody manufactures something in Japan, ships it to this place. So I wanted to be in the corporate world, and uh, you know, I followed it, I went to do engineering, I did uh a business degree after that, and um, I gotta say I've been lucky, I've been able to move ahead, uh, but I've always wanted it. And um so so I feel like I've made choices around in my life which sort of helped the cause, if you will. And so yeah, you gotta you gotta sort of try and know what you want and uh not be too dogged about it, I think. Um, that this is what I exactly want because you don't know. Uh people growing up today, Georgia. What do you know what their career is gonna be? I think it's hard to tell. And therefore, just being agile about it is is great. But but at a high level, I I did want to be in the corporate world, and I want to do something with tech. So those two seem to be together here. And you you said that, and I often hear entrepreneurs and and incredible leaders speaking about luck. And I think there can be an element of luck. And I think what you said, what you said here, which is really important, you know, I made choices to help the cause. Because, you know, what can appear as luck, it's it's a little bit like the iceberg. You know, people can see the two sevenths, the accomplishments, the accolades, they don't see the fifth seventh, the submerged, which is all those decisions, those choices, the sleepless nights, some difficult conversations. So you made the choices to help the cause. I think that's it's that's such a critical piece. I think so. I think, but look, I think it'd be arrogant to believe that you did it all. I don't think that's true. I think how you were born matters. I think how you grow up matters. Do you have the ability to go study matters? Now, if you only party and you don't study, that's a choice you're making. And I think the harder you work, the luckier you get. There's no question about that. The more you genuinely care about people, people want to work with you, there's no question about that. But still, to do well in life, I think you have to have an element of God, if you will, or call it luck. Um, but yeah, all of those elements make you luckier or the probability of succeeding higher. That's all you can do. If you work harder, the chances of you doing better or is just higher. And so I think it is luck, but it is also helped by the scaffolding around it, I think. And as long as you make the choices you can make, uh, I think I think the outcome is usually better. And that that is without question that it is better. But yeah, if I look back at my life, I came to the US, that was pretty lucky. Um, then the person who was working um wanted to start an office in the East Coast and gave me an opportunity to go run a new office when I was in the 20s. There was some luck in that. And so there has been elements of luck in life, but but I do feel that yeah, hard work, dedication uh to your cause really matters. Yeah. Well, I tell my children who are 15 and 13 that hard work is a minimum. I think they're like, whatever, mom, but I'm now going to be playing this back to them to see, see, look, this extraordinary leader, he says hard work is really important too. It's not just your mom knacking you. Yeah, yeah. It is true, is it? You look at your life also, it's not easy. Uh and people say, Oh, it's not luck, I'm a genius. No, you're not. It is it is the hard work, but also dedication. I think you spoke about curiosity and innovation. I think if you're not curious, you're gonna, it's just hard to be successful. And the more curious you are, the chances of you being luckier just improves. And so each one is somewhat statistical, and e each thing which you do right, I think, I think makes you luckier. And through the well, through your career, I'm sure there've been um uh mentors, people have given you advice. And I'm wondering, are there any pieces of advice that have stood the test of time, or not even stood the test of time, but stand out as like, wow, that was a real inflection point. That I I I it put me on a different path having heard that piece of advice. Yeah, I've had you know one mentor in particular who went to the same high school as I did. So so um, you know, he's still a mentor of mine. I worked with him for many years, uh, directly, indirectly, um, invested with him. And so I do believe um, you know, you've got a lesson to some people about who have really nothing but your goodwill at heart. But what are the lessons there, things which have stuck with me? One is, you know, put your hand up. Put your hand up. I think that I do not understand why so many people don't. Um if you get a chance, put your hand up. Even if you don't succeed in that opportunity, whatever that might be, people remember that you put your hand up. So there's an opportunity which came up in Singapore. I was sitting in India doing really well, and they said, Hey, we need someone to go to Singapore. And to I put my hand up. I said, you know, I can do that. It didn't work out because they did not want me to leave what I was doing at that time. But then, six months later, an opportunity came up in the US. And people remember they called me and said, Hey, you wanted to go there? Are you still keen to go? And I had no idea what the US was. I'd never been there. And I put my hand up, and that got me a chance to come to the Bay Area. And if you think about Georgia, what happened was I was working there with a bunch of colleagues, and we did quite well. And then they said, and we're really comfortable. California is beautiful. I was in Cupertino, it was it was magical. Um, and and but someone said, Hey, listen, we're gonna open an office on the East Coast. And I put my hand up, and I got to run a regional office much before my colleagues did. And and with all due respect, Stanford wasn't great. I used to live in Connecticut. But because I put my hand up, I got to see how to build an independent office much faster. And I can just go through my life and see so many of them were because I put my hand up. And um, you know, your children are 15 and 13. If they get a chance to come study in the US or work in there, tell them put the hand up. If they get a chance to go to Hong Kong and work there or go work in Singapore, I don't care. Go go do it. And there are times in life you can, and times in life it's harder because of family and all kinds of things. So when you have a chance, put your hand up. And uh so I feel like that is the biggest thing I I sort of one piece of advice I was to give. Um, I think the second one is what you said about don't don't get comfortable. You know, it's not fun. I think even life is not fun. I mean, when I was thinking about your job driving in, I was saying, you know, you get to meet really varied people, and that's fun, but it's not your sweet spot. You can't just say I'm gonna do the same thing over and over again. So the desire to put yourself out there is is, I think, the other big, big quality. So anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to go on. But I think those two things when it matters in never get comfortable. Having written a couple of, well, several books, um, if ever you're gonna write one, put your hand up. Um this is a bestseller all over it. I mean, put your hand up because it's about putting, and that speaks to don't get comfortable, you know, put exercise that discomfort zone, see what's possible for you. I I I love the the put your hand up. And what's really interesting, and Henry Fernandez, he's he he was um from MSC, CEO of MSE on, he was in a book that I that I wrote, and he said a lot of this stuff is common sense, not common practice. Like we all know to get ahead, you know, we people have different ways of saying, you know, put your hand up, but put yourself in the discomfort zone, but but often people don't do it. And I I love your journey of putting your hand up, how that's opened up, you know, how that opened up your world for you. Yeah, it has. I've got to tell you, it is. I look back, you know, the one thing which I did which was different, you also have to work hard, and those things go hand in hand, but just the ability. I mean, think about the world, Georgie. It's becoming more global. Let's say you have worked in Africa for two years, when you were 15 or 17 or 20. Tomorrow an opportunity opens up which needs a senior person to go to Africa, and you have got two years in Africa and other colleagues don't. Guess who's gonna be picked? It's gonna be you. If something comes up in Hong Kong and people want to do business in China, and you've done one year of college there, and you now understand the culture of that place, it just is a question of becoming richer as a human. And and you can do that through, you know, just being more more open to opportunities, I think. I love this. Put your hand up. I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna be using that. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be uh and again, my children, they often they often uh hear the lessons that I that I certainly hear in my conversation. So that's one thank you for that. They'll be thanking you. Um and you, I would imagine, have a very uh demanding I'm gonna say life because I think home and work now, I don't think it's home and you know, and work. I think it everything is very intertwined. One of the areas that I see, you know, it's not a challenge for leaders, but it's you know, how do you strike the balance? Because there are many things competing for your attention. You know, there's there's it the environment's intense. So how do you, you know, what is you know, how do you strike balance? What does that look like for you? Yeah, but you know, I've got to be just transparent. I'm not good at it. I'm not good at it. I do some things though, which are sort of rules for me, if you will. One is I've got two girls, uh, 30 and 25. If they call, I'll always take the call. I mean, I don't care what I'm doing. I will walk out of a meeting, I will do whatever it takes. Uh so that's one thing I uh, you know, in in an effort to make sure I prioritize what's super important. Um, you know, my wife, if she calls, she'll understand if I don't pick it up. Ah, you know, this guy's got this work going on. But not my girls. My girls call, uh, I will always pick up pick up the phone. That is the one thing. I do try and, you know, do some things on the weekend, which is uh, you know, I'll always play tennis uh every weekend, singles 90 minutes, so that that sort of gets me excited, play golf. Um but you know, balance is just hard. I I just I I know a lot of people talk about good balance, and some people are just better than others. Um but it is I I do feel this, and I'll it'll come out a little wrong maybe, but look, life's a bell curve to some degree. The outcomes of life are a bell curve. But if you want to be in that top 1%, you can't then say I want balance as if I'm in the middle. That just sort of it doesn't compute properly. I think you can say I'm more efficient, and therefore I'm gonna be at the 80th percentile of work-life balance, but but I can still get to the top 1%. But it's a little bit inconsistent to believe that I want to be in the top 1.1%, but my work-life balance needs to be at the 50th percentile. It just doesn't quite work like that. So that's how I convince myself, and that's how I try and convince my wife and my family, saying, look, this is the story. I'm not quite sure it works every time, but the logic is is what I use. So yeah, no, no, I don't do a great job of it, and I and I wish I could do better. Well, I think but the logic makes perfect sense. It the logic and I think life is a series of trade-offs as well, but it it's also about conscious choice making, and also I think finding fun in the journey. I mean, I I love what I do, I work longer hours than I ever did when I was in the corporate world, but there's a genuine not joy and passion all the time, let's be clear, but most of the time, and so I'm kind of magnetized to want to do more. I have to kind of you know physically kind of have to extract myself sometimes because otherwise I wouldn't take a break. Yeah, yeah. But you've got to be, you know, I think eventually you have to enjoy the journey. If you don't enjoy the journey, life is too short. And uh, you know, I've tried one once or twice, twice actually, tried to, you know, come down in intensity a little bit by being an operating partner at a private equity fund one time. And I was I said sort of did, I thought I could pull back a little bit, and I don't enjoy it. I I think um, you know, some people are peep players, some are coaches, and nothing wrong with either one, but you gotta figure out which one you want to do. And uh I enjoy the playing, I enjoy the challenge, I enjoy the um, you know, what you're doing for clients. And that's just it. So uh I I think the work-life balance is a really important concept, though, for for you know, companies have a bell curve, and for everyone in the middle, they should get be able to get a reasonable balance, and that's fine. But if you're a senior executive, it's tougher. I think we are very much in the C-suite. I think it's just tougher. You have to acknowledge that, I think. And uh so yeah, work-life balance is an interesting topic. I mean, I'm one other day you'd love to figure out what you've heard from others because uh I don't do a good job, and I know that. Uh you will be in very good company if you listen to any of the episodes I've recorded with any of the leaders, uh, they would say exactly uh I mean Lance said he goes, I don't have an off switch, but I have on switches. So you mentioned you know your daughter's call, that's an on-switch. If if you know, if and you have to be responsible for activating those, because no one's gonna no one's gonna you know activate those switches for you. Um I think the people when they operate at that 0.1% or 1%, it's that it's but it's I suppose it what what how you define balance because if you love what you do and that you you enjoy your journey, then it maybe means you are all in at work, but that's a choice. I I think so. I I think you know, one time I was complaining uh to my to my wife and say, you know what, this is really hard, damn it. And she said, Look, if you weren't enjoying it, you won't be doing it. In the sigma of things, you have to be enjoying it for you to want to do it and get on a plane at five in the morning. And um I think. She's right. I think uh people make you said choices. And um, you know, before you I think uh Joe, you'll agree that you know, if you're financially you need to work, then the choices are are less you can make. Um, but you're still making choices about the kind of work you're doing, about how much time you are spending with the family. So I still think people are still making choices. And um, yeah, I I think as you as you get into different kinds of jobs, the choices you make are lesser. You you just said um I my wife, I think she's right. I wonder how if you've told her that. Yeah, right. No, my friends are always right. No, don't be confused about that. I am you've declared it on the episode, so I think you're gonna have to point her to this and uh, but you said I think she's right. I would just I would just say I backspace on the that I think she's right. I think she's I keep thinking because you know sometimes you feel I mean, there is leading a company, leading a team, um, just being responsible for your own actions to clients, is a is a big responsibility. And and you can't control everything. I mean, I think there is um I wish we could control everything, but you can't. And and yet you have to have a hundred percent of the responsibility. So it it is, it's not the easiest thing to say, yep, this is how it is. So you start to weave in, I think, to people at all. And and how have you, and look, this may have changed over over your career, but I I'm curious around, see, I've used the word curious, curiosity. I'm curious around how you define success. Like what does success mean for you personally? What does it mean for your company? Yeah, you know, I I sort of have a view about this. I think success, you have to look at the personal life first. If someone's not happy in life, and I mean your family, your your spouse and your children, your parents, your close friends, if that doesn't work, it affects everything, I think. I I think so. I feel like success is seeing my daughters do well. There's very little which will give me that much joy as to see them do well. And so I feel like when I talk about success, what do you so I first think about my family, I think about my extended family. And then in that same breath, I I care very, very deeply about everyone who works for me and works with me. I think I really care. I feel like if we can have some impact on their lives, or at least their financial life, I think we are making lives better. We're giving people opportunities. And so I define success as the family side then about employees. And and I don't know whether you might you would agree or not, Georgie, but if employees are happy and engaged, they will build good products. They will take care of clients. And if clients do well, your shareholders will do well. So I feel very strongly that in a smaller company, it can be the individual who can decide the fate of the organization. But as you get bigger, you have to have many people who are as passionate about whatever you're trying to do, right? And so success is getting a team energized and excited about the mission you are on, and making sure it's fair, making sure in things like compensation, in things like roles, in things like room to operate. All of those have a balance. And if there isn't a balance, the the queen on a chessboard is not important unless she's supported ably by the knight and the rook, and those play in balance. But if they don't have the balance, it doesn't matter. A pawn can be bigger than the queen. It depends on where and how that pawn is placed on a chessboard. And so I feel like the balance really matters, and success, sorry, unidimensional is very, very hard. And uh you need some money always, but money doesn't buy you satisfaction. If you don't have any money, I think it it can be the unique cause of your massive dissatisfaction and unhappiness. There's no question about that. But once you have a certain amount, I think it brings marginal return. Um, and the rest of it is much, much more important, I think. And so, yeah, I don't know if people agree with that or not, but I do think that that, at least for me, that that is how I think of success. And um, you know, as long as you are doing all of those elements, I think you are you are gonna be happy. Yeah, and I think look, people are behind every product, every protocol uh process, every protocol, like it's it's people. And I think when people are motivated and inspired by the mission, it I then think of it as rather than leadership, it's more followership. You know, people want to be on that journey. They're excited, they're inspired, like every, you know, from top to bottom. And people will take the hill. They'll because there's a like in enthusiasm and passion, it like it energizes, it elevates, and it's that I think that's where the strange thing happens to maths, the one plus one equals three, because everyone, you know, collectively is is growing. Yeah, and it's you go back 30 years. This wasn't true. 30 years back, what was true was the assembly line, the people who owned the blast furnaces, the people who owned, it was capital, right? If you think about just the railroads and you think about steel mills and all of that, people mattered, but not that much. Right? It was, and that's why I think the shift is occurring because the hard assets are still important, but not anywhere near as important as it was 30 years back or 40 years back. And now most companies, the financial services companies you work for, there's nothing but people. And you thought of the change is huge. When you look at England, and you look at the cotton mills, and you just think about life. It was around the factory. And and if you got one worker out, you could get another one in. It people mattered, but they weren't everything the company was. But if you think about Google and you think about Amazon, you think about market, it's only people. So if you can't get that right, I think you lose. And and so that shift is more recent in the last few decades, and not really something which has gone on for centuries. It simply hasn't. And before that it was land. Whoever owned land, if you owned land, you were powerful, but not the people. And then it was machinery and not the people. And now it is pretty much just the people. So so yeah, that that that shift has occurred has occurred, I think, over time. And if we think about people as a competitive advantage, you know, we look at the world today and it's technology transformation. You know, how do you think about Gen AI? You know, what does that mean for you in the world you operate in? Yeah, I look, I I think that most people who don't see this uh do this at their own peril. I mean, generative AI is gonna transform everything. And um, I would, you know, and again, you may be too young to remember this, but go back to the internet. And when the internet came around, you might recall people said, Oh, this is gonna change how you buy books. And then people said, Oh, this is gonna change how you buy airlines. And that's the limit of what the internet was gonna do. And look at what it did today to develop technology to say, I'm gonna build technology which is not connected to the internet, it's like there isn't even the conversation, Georgie, right? And I think the same thing with generative AI. I think people are starting to say, oh, you know what, maybe it'll impact some areas and not other areas. It's just completely false. It will completely change, completely change how we work and how we behave, how we interact. I mean, I still remember a study, this is in 2004 or 5, where people said, Oh, you're gonna be on your phone for two or three hours a day. And I felt it was the most daft piece of research I'd ever seen in my life. And the truth is, that's where we are today, right? And generative AI, I mean, you think about the impact it'll have on robotics and what robots can do, and the ability to bring that knowledge of being able to talk to people and work with people and you know, look after, think about healthcare, think about anything in the world away it'll be 15, 20 years from from now. And I think it'll be massively and completely changed. And I I still have a lot of faith in human endeavor, but so I do believe that, you know, when the Agrarian society was dying, people said, Oh, what will people do? And people found manufacturing. And then when automation came along, people said, Oh my god, humans will have no work. And guess what? Everybody found technology and other things to work on. And so I still feel like general AI will completely change how we think and behave and work and live. But I do feel that the other side of it, which is that humans are not going to be important anymore, is overblown, I think. I think it uh the human beings, the the endeavor of human beings is extraordinary. And and uh time and again, you go go back centuries and you take a look at it, you just plot the curve, and you can see humans have always persevered and done well. So I think both are true, but generative AI, I mean, it is it is it's so transformative. You think about the amount of money and capital destroyed, Georgi. You think about the internet uh and you go back to Blockbuster and Netflix. Blockbuster owned everything. Yeah. All the studio, um, you know, they knew the studio, they knew the actor, they knew the whole thing, the whole knew the whole distribution business, and completely destroyed it. You remember Dell came in and destroyed Compaq and there's it's littered with leaders who did not see the power of the change coming. So I agree a lot with people who say people always overestimate the time taken. They always think it's gonna take shorter than it actually does, but they also underestimate the impact of technology. And that is true for every technology that has come along, is that people think it'll have an impact much faster than actually true, and it'll have a much bigger impact than actually true. And those have just stood the test of time. But generative AI won't take 20 years. Every new technology just takes shorter time to get in front of you, and that's just a fact. And so what's a question, you as a leadership team, when it comes to Gen AI, what's a question you ask of yourselves? I think you've got to start with what is the right way to do it? So we are in the investment accounting businesses, you know, we do investments, and and then you've got to say, what is the right way for Georgie to deploy her assets? And the question is, how do you do it today? Right? And the way you do it is you have a checking account and you have a savings account, and you perhaps have a brokerage account, perhaps have a wealth account, and you have no idea how well these are doing. You probably have a number of user work usernames and passwords, once in a while you look at it, but how are you really doing? So if you think about what is the right way to do it beyond the marketing, then that is how you should think about investment accounting is what is the right investment Georgie should be making? And how do I bring that to you so that you can make a choice? And you look at what Amazon did, Georgia. You used to go to a neighborhood store and you bought something. Was it the right price? You don't know. You were pretty clueless about it. You just looked at maybe another store in town and you bought whatever you did. Amazon changed all of that. Because now you can go in the net and you can say, ah, that toothpaste, toothpaste. Here's how I'm gonna order it, and it brings you the most efficient delivery and perhaps economically the best deal you can find, right? But you don't do that with money. With money, you invest it sort of, no idea. You give it to some manager you trust, but why do you trust him? And it does he or she do a good job for you? Well, you don't know. And so, what Clearwater wants to think about is how does generative AI change how you invest and how institutions invest, and how do governments invest? And so, generative AI, if if you ask me the question about what we shouldn't talk about, how will it fundamentally change the business? So, how will Netflix be just vastly different from from um from really if you look at the way it was done by Blockbuster? One last point, I'll make it, I'll stop after that. One is it's the wrong idea to think about I'm gonna make the taxi company more efficient. The right idea is how do people want to travel and think about Uber? And if you get caught into the incremental improvement game when new technology comes around, I think you lose. And correctly so. So generally AI leaders across companies and industries and governments should think about what's the right way to do it? How do you really want and then rethink and don't try and modify what you have because we don't want a more efficient taxi company to dispatch taxi? We want to use Uber, where everybody can work for six hours and go off for two hours to pick up their kids and come back and work again. Yeah, that's the model. So you've got to rethink what generative VI would do with robots. How will that life look? And and so that's a point. I think that as long as people think about it as a completely disruptive technology which is going to change everything about everything, I think you're probably at a good starting point. And and I love what you said there, Islam. You know, it this is not uh, you know, it's not it's not modifying, it's rethinking everything, it's completely rethinking it. And I want to go back, you know, we talk we talked um about the the the the human side of leadership and human capital. And I'm curious, we know, when you when you recruit people and leaders into into clear water analytics, you know, what or equally traits and characteristics you see from other great leaders in the industry, you know, what what what do you think makes a great leader in today specifically in today's world? Yeah, I look I I'm a bit of a you know, I I I care about raw intelligence, I think it matters. Uh I think the ability to work hard matters, but what matters above all uh to me is just infectious passion for what people do. And it's not just passion, it is infectious passion. When they walk into a room, are they infectiously passionate about what they're doing? Whatever they're trying to achieve, it doesn't matter. So I feel like that if you have that, then you can help companies lead. And a lot of people will say I'm quietly passionate, and that makes no sense to me. If you're gonna be a leader of people and leader who provides something to clients, it's so our number one value in our company, you know, every company has values you put out there, our number one is that infectiously passionate about what we are doing. And uh obviously you have to build a good team, you've got to have a good track record, and all those things matter. But if you were to ask for one thing and say, what's that one thing which you look for? And you can make that out. You can make that out in a pretty short while. I think one interview people can do where they sort of you can't read all of it, but you talk to there, if I talk to Lance about you, there's gonna be something he's gonna say. And very quickly, if it's not in the top three, then it's not your biggest trait, right? And um, just passion about what you're trying to do. I think uh I I personally believe it is the most important thing in the world we live in is are you are you infectiously passionate? By the way, that didn't go down too well in the COVID times. So when COVID is around and we used to talk about infectious does not do well. But you know, we stuck with it, we just became a little quieter about that word. We would say very infectiously passionate about I I it it's in because passionate to me is a very powerful strong word, but the infectiously passionate that just takes it to a whole nother level. And it it's it's it's how that energetically transforms others around you. Like it's it you know, it's it's moving it to me, it moves people that that infectionally passionate. And you always know them, Georgie. If you go think about your times in your career, you always know those people who were, oh my lord, this person is really passionate about building something, doing something, and and that that sticks out, and at least I believe that makes the biggest difference. And I'm curious, you know, we talked about COVID, that that's a a big uh a big uh well moment uh through our careers. Um you've led through an IPO, and I and I was curious around, which I think is in 2021, if it has changed your leadership, and if so, how has it changed your leadership? Yeah, well one thing I've got to say, which is not the thing you might want to want or expect to hear, but going public was a big deal. I mean, Clearwater was a company which is still based in Boise, Idaho. And so they initially it was still a very small company, and it is in Idaho. No one thinks about technology as Boise, Idaho, if you know the place at all. And so it was initially a local company, and then it became a bit of a regional company. And for us to go out to the New York Stock Exchange and ring the bell and have 75 of our colleagues there who had flown in from Boise was truly special. It it sort of helped everyone see that they can compete with the best in the world. It was transformative, not for becoming an IPO, but to say, you're on the New York Stock Exchange, and we rang the bell, and we had a big old party. We spent too much money on the party, but we did. But we had parties, a party with dancers and singers, and which was crazy. But the point was, it allows you to dream um beyond what you might think possible. And I think for our team and myself, I think for a whole leadership team, it showed that it's possible. It's possible to be a leader, not just in Boise or in the Northwest or in the West Coast, but of the world. So I feel like it changed our perspective. It brings extraordinary pressures. Don't get me wrong. We, you know, you get judged every day for no apparent reason. I mean, the stock goes down 5%, and people look at you. They say, you idiot. And uh we get the glory, but you have to take that hit. Um, you know, our company, every employee has shares in the company. And when when it goes down 5%, guess what? Everybody gets hurt. And so you have to have the sense of responsibility, and for employees and for shareholders, but also clients. So the IPO sort of brings it out there. Every day you're judged. Otherwise, you're at least judged once a quarter and sort of quieter. And how uh to your point, you you know, the you can get the glory and all the um the good feedback or the the the good vibes that come you know when the stock price is doing well, and equally as the leader of an organization, people point the finger, you know, if there's a dip by five percent. How do you how do you deal with that? Because it can feel quite personal, I'm assuming. Yeah, I I think look, I I've been fortunate that you know we did well financially sort of early on, and and so it doesn't matter to me personally, uh, if if the stock goes up five percent, ten percent, whatever. But I've got to tell you, it is it is it is the most gut-wrenching part of my job is to shareholders do this professionally, so so they understand the cycle of prices and things like that. But there are people who own a million dollars in a company and half a million and five million and a hundred thousand and ten thousand. And if the stock goes down 10% or 15, 20%, guess what? I mean, they just lost $200,000. And so you I take it very, very personally. And yeah, it is. I I think if I was to say, what is the toughest part of my job? It is, and no one says anything because when we joined the company, when I started with the company, uh, share was at $4 a share, is where we started. Uh so people got lots of shares at that price, also, right? People who've been there a while. So we've done well, but don't kid yourself. When you are, when do you think your stock's worth 20, it goes down to 18 and you lose 10%, is still traumatic, depending on where you are in your financial cycle. You may have kids going to college. Uh, you may have to pay for private school or regular school or whatever that might be. And so, yeah, I I think it's it's it's tough. I think that is the tough part of the job. I I I a leader recently shared with me, he said that leadership is really lonely. He said, and you're not alone. You're surrounded with loads of people, the board, shareholders, your team. But it ultimately it rolls back to you. And he said it can be feel so incredibly isolating. Yeah. Because they're not in consonance, right? If we think about employees and clients and shareholders and the board, they all don't want the same thing. The shareholders want the returns, some of them want short-term returns, some of them want you to fail if they're shorting your stock. I mean, no one, it isn't aligned. If all four were aligned behind you, I think it would be easier. And employees obviously want to get paid more. It's a sort of a complicated balance between this and all of it has to work in harmony. And I don't want to keep bringing up chess, but yeah, it's like it's got to work in harmony. And you have you've got to you've got to be able to be harmonious about it. But I think you know the one thing I do take away from this is you have to be doing the right thing. And so I always focus on am I doing the right thing for the right reasons? And as long as I'm doing that, it is what it is. Uh I can still feel, I wish I could do better, but I'm always, always saying, Am I doing the right things for the right reasons? And then if I made the wrong call, I made the wrong call. But I'll never make the wrong call because of an agenda item I have. I don't. I wake up and say, what can I do which is better for C1 or Clearwater? And that's that's all I sort of think about. And now we bought these companies in recent times. A lot of people said that look, this is gonna hurt the stock for a bit of time. When you buy something, usually stock the stock price suffers. And we were very much about what's the right thing for our clients and our company in the next two years and three years and five years? What is the right thing? And it became quite clear that the right thing was to do this, and then then you don't worry about it. And you you just do the right thing, even though it brings short-term discomfort. By the way, that's not super helpful to the employee who just lost 15% because the stock went down. But what you do is it's your responsibility to go stand up and explain why. And and and many of the of the leaders will say, Yeah, that makes sense. I understand why, and some might disagree. And and that's fine. You have to be respectful of everybody who's in the company and comes in every morning and gives the best. And so you've got to care. I mean, eventually, if you don't, you you I don't think you can succeed today if you don't care. And you mentioned there about you know the the acquisitions, you know, there's that the inorganic growth that that um with with those acquisitions. And I'm curious, you know, we talked about people being you know people-centric. When you've got your acquiring and you bring different cultures in, how do you make it a one clear water? How does that work? It's firstly, it's super hard, right? It's super hard. So you've got to start from there. When people say it's really easy to acquire, it's I I don't think that's true. Um, so so that's the one thing. Second thing is we we we acquired companies which were leaders in their own field, right? So one company was leader in the front office software, and the other one was the leader in doing risk for derivatives and other complicated assets, right? So first you've got to wake up and say, we acquired them, but they know what they are doing much, much, much better than I do. So you've got to say that to yourself loudly. And then you've got to say, if we knew it better, we wouldn't have acquired them. So you've got to be respectful of whatever you have done, in this case, acquired these companies, and then spend a real amount of time explaining why you did what you did, and therefore what the joint vision is, and get people behind that. Means, as you might know, we changed last week, we changed our the name of the company for the outside world, the brand, from Clearwater Analytics to C1. And the reason was just this it isn't like Clearwater Analytics has acquired Infusion and acquired Beacon. We have all three merged to create this new entity called C1, which is gonna be which is gonna be a leader in investment accounting. So I I think it starts with, again, a genuine understanding that the reason you bought them is they have something you don't have and they do something better, and then being respectful of what you're trying to build and being very transparent and honest. There's no problem with saying, hey, in this new merged entity, your role's gonna be different. And if that doesn't work for you, Georgie, we want to be respectful of that and come up with a path which is, by the way, because people are watching, everybody who worked for you sees how you were treated. And as long as you're doing it nicely and respectfully, I think you come to a good outcome. And so I don't think it can be done, but I I've got to say it's hard because people are just generically worried about change. In our case, the company is growing very nicely, so then the urgency to do something is is very, very different. And when you're growing, I mean growth hides a lot of sense. It's just true. And when you're growing that nicely, it just hides a lot of sense. And so you can you can make the decisions which are appropriate without having to worry about something this quarter and next quarter. I love you have so many incredible one-liners. Growth hides a lot of sins. And I'm gonna completely pivot as we as we um as we close. And I'm really I would love to know when you think about your parents, and are your parents alive or are they? Not yet, no. So, but when they were alive, what do you think they were most proud of when looking at you? Yeah, I I I think I I know the answer to that a little bit. My mother loved her to death. Um I I think they definitely looked at me as someone who was a good human. There is zero doubt about that. I thought they were very proud of my successes, and um, but they were really proud that anyone who spoke about me to them said, Oh, he's a he's a really good human. And one thing my mother always taught me was see how many people come back to you. And and you know, so if you start C1, how many of the earlier leaders came back to work with you? And if you started Headstrong and Tech Span, I've been with many companies. And that's a pretty good measure to say, do people come back to work for you and work with you? And they do if you were a good person and in its totality. It's not like you're great. It's do you uh do you treat people with respect and fairly? And uh people want to be paid a lot, but if you're transparent how you pay people, I think it's very simple. How I get paid, Georgie is super transparent. Um, you know, I insist that the board in the beginning of the year define what they want, what are those five elements, and I have them waited. So don't tell me it's revenue and profitability. You say 30% revenue, 20% profitability, 15% cash flow, whatever those are. And for the top 200 executives, that's what we do. We have them define in the beginning of the year, but you used a term earlier in the discussion today. You said, you know which hill to take. I can't tell you how many executives there are around the world who are not sure about which hill they are supposed to take, in what time, and what resources they have to take it. Everything is a little blurry about what you are really responsible for. And Clearwater does a really good job. We do a really good job of saying exactly what are you responsible for? And really, for the top 200 executives, Georgie, when you get to the end of the year, they don't have to call me about the bonus. They can do the math themselves because if they are judged on whatever those five elements are, never ten, because ten becomes too much. You got five elements and you have a target bonus. You multiply this, and like last year, if I was 106% of my scorecard, I got 106 off my target bonus. Thank you very much. And it is, it takes the politics out of an organization, everyone's focused on the outside world because all your metrics are usually outside world oriented. Uh, customer satisfaction scores, gross margin booking, revenue growth, all of which are related to the outside world. And so don't say good morning to Sandeep Sahai, that's not super helpful. What's helpful is do your clients love what you're doing for them, right? And so, yeah. Oh, look, uh, transparency is equity, as one leader um uh shared with me. This has been an infectiously energizing conversation for me. So many things that listeners are gonna love, you know, put your hand up, be infectionally passionate, rethink, don't modify. Am I doing the right thing? Growth hides a lot of sins. There look, this has just been, I mean, I pull little clips and I'm thinking, I don't even know where to start because there are so many. Um, I've appreciated your candor, your warmth, your um look, you're an extraordinary human being. And as I listened to you, I'm actually I felt quite emotional. Um as a mother and as yeah, it's it just yes, you're an incredible human being. So I appreciate your um generosity of time um sharing that with me. Thank you so much, Argie. Thank you.