Stratospheric Leaders
Welcome to Stratospheric Leaders - the podcast that brings you unfiltered, inspiring conversations with the visionaries shaping capital markets. I'm Georgie Dickins and each episode, I sit down with leaders who don’t just redefine industries - they create them. You’ll hear game-changing strategies, personal stories, and powerful insights from those who have achieved stratospheric success. These are the lessons they don’t teach you at business school. If you’re ready to elevate your game and those around you - you’re in the right place. And if you enjoy hearing from these titans, hit follow.
Stratospheric Leaders
#21 LMAX Group CEO David Mercer: Rethinking the Institutional Marketplace
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In this episode of Stratospheric Leaders, Georgie sits down with David Mercer, CEO of LMAX Group a global cross-asset marketplace, powering the fusion of traditional and digital finance through regulated market infrastructure and trusted technology.David is one of the most compelling voices at the intersection of institutional finance and digital assets. And his story is anything but standard. School leaver at 18, training accountant by day, doing paper rounds before school since he was 14, David has never once marked time. Every decision has been deliberate, every move purposeful. This episode is a masterclass in what it really takes to build, lead, and transform a business. David's wisdom is hard-won, and he shares it with a clarity and candour that is as rare as it is refreshing.Interesting areas covered:- The "Mercer Questions" the four questions David applies to every product, project and decision, and why they cut through almost everything in business- Why "busy is the new stupid" and how David keeps his diary deliberately, radically clear- How he spotted a Ferrari dressed as a Skoda, and turned LMAX from a struggling startup into a global force- The three things David wishes he had known before becoming a CEO loneliness, constantness and the truth about people- Why failing slowly is the only truly unforgivable outcome in business- Loyalty, people and why David believes it belongs to your family and your dogs- How to keep up with a world that is changing faster than ever and why practical learning beats theory every timeDavid's directness, self-awareness and refusal to waste a single moment make this a must-listen for anyone building something ambitious, leading a team through change, or simply asking themselves whether the decisions they are making today are the ones that will matter tomorrow.Enjoy.Find out more about Georgie Dickins:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgie-dickins-5083686a/Catch the show on audio in the car:Spotify – https://open.spotify.comApple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com#StratosphericLeaders #Leadership #CEOInsights #DavidMercer #LMAXGroup #BusinessLeadership #FinancialLeadership #DigitalFinance #LeadershipPodcast #ExecutiveLeadership #FintechLeadership #DecisionMaking #BusinessGrowth #LeadershipMindset #InstitutionalFinanceFor more information on the following topics, give us a follow:David MercerLMAX Groupinstitutional financedigital finance leadershipCEO decision makingbusiness transformationleadership under pressurefintech strategyexecutive mindsettime management leadershipfinancial markets leadershipdigital assets strategyhigh performance leadershipCEO lonelinessbusiness pivot strategy
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Audio - Stratospheric Leaders - David Mercer
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Meet the CEO Reshaping Global Finance
In this episode of Stratospheric Leaders, I am delighted to be joined by David Mercer, CEO of LMAX Group. And David is one of the most influential figures at the intersection of institutional finance and crypto. LMAX Group is a global financial technology panelhouse and the leading independent operator of institutional execution venues for FX and crypto trading, ranked as one of the fastest growing companies in the UK. Now, David, I am very excited about our conversation today, and I'd love to dive straight in. As I shared there, you are the CEO of LMAX Group and also a former city banker, a currency specialist, over 30 years in capital markets. But I want to rewind way back when, what was your first ever paid job? So all you said is I'm just old. That's really what mattered. Well actually, I think I think probably I'm a little bit non-standard in that I entered the workforce age day team. Um so look, I can't remember ever not working. So put simply,
Three Jobs Before School at 14
I had three jobs every morning before I went to school from the age of 14. So I, you know, I brought the papers in, I marked up the paper rounds, and I did one or two paper rounds, and then I went to school. So I did that from the age of 14. Had a little bit of break for my uh A levels and then post-A levels, you know, and in the summer, I worked in building warehouses, uh, builders' yards, and clothing warehouses. And I went I went straight from a clothing warehouse in the summer to Ernst Young as a training accountant when I was age 18. So there you go. And uh the the you know, the builder's yard, the paper rounds, what do you think that taught you early on? Actually, I just like the independence that that brought. Um if you like maybe the independence of capital, the independence of finance. I mean, I felt wealthy as a as a teenager. Um, I felt wealthy that I was able to buy Christmas presents for my family with my own money that I'd earned. I was there first thing in the morning, and it meant that other people didn't show up. I did their job and I earned an extra few quid for doing that paperwork. So I think I enjoyed that independence, and probably that was the thing that made me not go on to further education. My view is that I'd learned how to learn, and I liked the independence that sort of having my own capital meant. Um, and I just felt that I'd be better in the workforce than just, if you like, marking time in academia. So I think overall it was that, it was uh peddling my own canoe and being independent. Yeah, and and what you said there, I learned how to learn. I mean, what a great skill. I I you know, many of the entrepreneurs I work with, they talk about being a voracious learner. You know, every day's a school day, and you know, be a learn it all, not a know-it-all. Um, so learning how to learn is such a critical skill. Yeah. I mean, that's what I tell the youngsters now who enter the um the workforce. I mean, the last time I saw you were we were just uh meeting our new graduates. And that's what I tell them. I say, look, you've learned how to learn, you've proven that, that's why you're here. Now you have to learn how to apply yourself. So the guys, the you know, the guys that are gonna make it um will have those two attributes. They they know how to learn and they know how to apply themselves, and that's it. And then someone actually said to me, Well, how do you learn? I said, Well, that's just individual. Yeah, right. All of you are gonna have to work out what's best for you, right? What's your best method? And I think nowadays there's so many more ways to learn, um, and it's not one size fits all. Probably when you and I were studying, there was more one or two different ways of doing it. Now I think there's many. So uh, but it's it's key that we keep learning through our through our lives and that we learn that ability very early on. Yeah. My my son, he's doing his GCSEs at the moment, he's like, I just don't know how to revise. And I'm like, you do know how to revise. You you just you've got to, to your point, find your own technique. My way of doing things might be very different. 100%. 100% I I agree. And that's if you like why I'm sort of maybe jumped out of academia, because for me, I didn't appreciate the way we were taught. I mean, language is a crack, classic example. I don't know about you, but we used to go into language labs, never actually speak the language, go into language labs and more or less mess about. So I was like, that's not the way that you learn languages, and I think now the way people um, you know, certainly in STEM, there's much better ways of learning now than we were taught. Um, so I think you're right, everyone can jump in. And some people I think modern society they learn to dart around a lot more that their minds are less maybe less stable. So they're gonna have to learn in bite-sized chunks. And I think, and we put labels on people, whether it be ADHD
ADHD, Daydreaming and Bite-Sized Learning
or whatever, and I think I was a little bit like that. You know, perhaps the guy that was always sitting by the window looking out the window, daydreaming potentially, and maybe that method of learning where you know sit there and do double maths or double history probably isn't for me, probably wasn't for me. So I think everyone's gotta find their method. And look, the young folks of today they have many more distractions than us. Yeah, I think in many ways it's more difficult for them, but they can find a way, and the good leaders or teachers can adapt their methodologies for society today. And I think there's so much available on uh on the internet in terms of how to learn, you know, just put it into Chat GPT, that'll offer you some frameworks, try them all, and then see which one uh works best. And look, when you think about your early ambition and starting at Ernst and Young, like who were the people around you who believed in you? Because I think there's well, again, were there people around you or did it all come from within? I think a lot of it was inner drive, but I'd also say, you know, was it ambition
Was It Ambition or Just Fear of Failure?
or a fear of failure? When you you know, I made quite an aggressive decision, given um my schooling, to go and enter the workforce. If you like, for me to do a what I felt was a mini-degree, like training accountant rather than go to university, but also earn money. So that was quite a distinct decision. So of course you look at your family and they back you, but they did look a little bit askant at me because it was non-standard, and all my friends were going off to university. So I think they support you in the only way uh they can. And look, I think then throughout that journey from as I entered the workforce early age 18, and sort of quite a grown-up workforce, you know. I wasn't I wasn't playing at it. You know, I joined one of it, was the big six then, it's probably the big four now. I was joining the big six, and then shortly after that, you know, a few years after that, I'm entering a um a large investment bank. So I wasn't just dipping my feet in employment waters. I was fully committing. So then I think in terms of people around you who back you, would actually be those who took a chance on you, right? So it would be the employers, and there's there hasn't actually been that many in my life in terms of the people that employed you, the people that offered you jobs, but there's five or six people that did, and you know, um, thank you to them, and you know, hats off to them that that took that chance, took that risk, and perhaps um, you know, backed the square peg in the round hole. And when you think back, because I I think it's so interesting when you know individuals believe in us, they see that potential. Who who who's somebody you would credit for seeing seeing you know what your pathway could be? I mean, I just I mean I'll spare their blushes a little bit, but look, I think I started off in banking in the middle office, and I made it to the front office relatively early. A non-standard route again. Imagine a school lever goes into accounting, joins an investment bank in the middle office, and it was, you know, triple A rated new entity called Credit Suite Financial Products, CSF, for those of you who are around in those days. I was in the middle office, and look, maybe, maybe that wasn't the right place for this character. Uh, so there were two individuals, one in the one in the middle office, he was the boss, and one who was in the front office, he happened to know each other. And I think literally
The Conversation That Changed His Career
they had that conversation, Georgie, where they said, hey, look, we've got a live one up here. He might be better suited down there. Uh I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd done my apprenticeship, so to speak, two years in the middle office. They had that conversation. And, you know, ultimately, initially in the front office, I went to work for the COO of fixed income. So kind of it was like like a middle office role in the in the front office, but that got me that exposure, and that's you know, back to an earlier question. Probably my ambition grew from there because I saw it was possible. And maybe for the first time um I understood what capital markets was all about. I mean, maybe I'm a slow learner, but it took me that that four years of auditing, accounting, middle office to get to the front office and go, okay, that's what it's all about. So I think those people that made those changes, obviously, I wanted to do it. Obviously, I wanted to get there. But those two, those two gentlemen made made that decision, and we're talking, unfortunately, one of them's past there, but um they made that decision over 30 years ago uh to push me in that direction. And thank goodness they did. Yeah, and it's interesting there because that pushing is you said you've done your apprenticeship. Yes, you were made live wire, but they could see um what you would bring to the role. And and several things that really stood out for me there is you know, this non-standard career that you've had, but you said, you know, it's distinct decisions. There's been a real consciousness uh uh of decision making. You know, it's not I'm just gonna follow the flow, I'm gonna do what everyone else does. It's like what's the right decision for me? It goes back to your learning. What's the right way for people to learn? What's right for you? And you said something that really, really, I think is such an important lesson for life today. You said, you know, when you were choosing between, you know, whether to go to university, I didn't want to just go and mark time. And time is such a finite resource. And how many people are consciously living? So many people are just marking time. And I just felt that as I listened to, I thought, right, we all we all need to take a daily dose of that. 100%.
Time: Your Most Precious Asset
I mean, it's the most um the most precious commodity we have. So um I think guard it. I think you you guard it as your most precious commodity. And you know, when you're when you're analyzing your career, I look, I think again, back to young people today, they're gonna have longer careers than us, right? They're gonna live longer. So maybe they can spend more time trying other things. But I've certainly felt I didn't have time to waste. You know, I came from that environment that's you know, you're gonna work until your 50s. Um now I think people think they're gonna work to their 60s, and probably the next generation, they're gonna think they're gonna work till their 70s. I felt like I felt like I didn't have time to waste, I still feel like I don't have time to waste. And I think when you um analyze that, I try not to waste time, and I certainly try not to waste time at work. You know, we're always striving to be better, we're always striving to achieve because one year of marking time for me, I feel like I'm falling behind. I've always felt that maybe that's you know the driver, the fear of failure. I I think that's probably the the biggest driver for me and uh maybe for everyone in capital markets, but just marking time, just business and you as usual doesn't suit me. And I'd probably say if you put me, if you if you drop me into another company right now and said, hey, it's BAU, let's just say it's uh a listed vehicle or a you know a dividend, a dividend stock, right? And it's just BAU cranking out more and more widgets and uh appeasing shells. I I think there's probably a million people who are better at that than than I, um, because I've got that, you know, that drive or that impatience to never waste time. And it's Aristotle, isn't it, who said, like, knowing myself is the beginning of all wisdom. And some people love BAU. And we meet people who love the BAU. So it's knowing what brings you alive, what like what activates you. Um, you said about guarding your time, and I was gonna ask you in a second how to do that, um, because I think as leaders, there are many things competing for our time, our attention, focus. I remember one leader shared with me a while ago, he said, like, you know, I'm very conscious about removing the wombats, and I'll say, you know, what's a wombat? And he said, activities which are a waste of money, brains, and time. Like you know, I I you know, I audit my diary to make sure there's no wombats there. But but yeah, how do you guard your time where there are many, you know, that there are many demands of it? Yeah, I'll be honest with you, I've never found it that difficult. I'm quite harsh with it. I mean,
He Just Walks Out of Pointless Meetings
I've been well known to walk out of meetings that are pointless from day one at LMAX. And I used to be probably the naughty kid um at class, but in business at the start, I remember you probably remember it as well, when we switched from the ECU to the Euro, and then we had Y2K. I used to basically fall asleep at these donkey meetings where you know everyone's just nodding their head. We didn't achieve anything. So whenever I became able to be a boss of some description, um, I just got rid of these donkey meetings, right? So I do not have a Monday morning meeting, biggest waste of time ever. I have very few periodic um updates with my team. You know, I trust my team. So if you look at my diary, I think you'd be quite surprised at how blank it is. Certainly, my when I when I first got an EA, uh, I think we were very surprised at how little was in my diary because I walk around and I grab people and I can have an impromptu meeting that might take an hour and a half. Um, but I can have an impromptu meeting that takes five minutes. But what you won't see is a lot of periodic catch-ups and get-togethers. So, a good day for me. I come to work every single day, Georgie, if I'm in London, and I love it if I come to work and there's nothing in my dark, right? So, again, back to protecting time, preserving it, and giving myself time to think. You know, nothing fills me with dread more than a day which has got eight meetings in it back to back. Typically, that only really happens when I travel. That happens in London. I know it's going to be a very average day for me. And what happens, I think, with human beings and in business is Monday to Friday happens like that, and you've had, I don't know, let's just imagine you've had 25-30 meetings that week. You get to Saturday and you're very tired, you're all out of energy, um, enthusiasm, and you say, I've been really busy this week, and then you you know you look at it and you sort of say, What have you achieved? You know, I look, there's a very famous video online with Baffett and Gates, and it says, Busy is the new stupid. So I try to avoid that. I try to avoid busy calendars. In my view, I know this is a long answer, but in my view, I allow myself a lot of time to think, and I guard time preciously. Yeah, and it's it's that that busy is the new stupid I love. And um, it's interesting because a lot of leaders I work with, that time to think, that that those exact words that you said, I'm struggling with time to think. And it's not just individually, it's sometimes as a leadership team, you know, we are lacking time to think. And to your point, then actively create space. I mean, I think that's a gift that's available to most people, but we somehow, to your point, get you know, it involved in these recurry meetings. That how often are we doing meeting inventories? How often do we walk out if that's not the highest to best use of our time? 100%. And
Don't Be the Bottleneck: Get It Off Your Desk
I mean, I I tell all my you know, everyone who works with me, get it off your desk. Just get it off your desk. I see this as one of my biggest jobs, get it off my desk. Because the last thing I want to be is the is the bottleneck and the thing that prevents us moving ahead. And sometimes you see a lot of people guarding their position, or if you like guarding their position and wanting to feel all important, I'm kind of the opposite. I just want all BAU stuff off my desk to other people who are empowered, and then I can be doing fun stuff because sometimes I have to be doing the fun stuff, which could be the next big thing for us, or I need to be looking at 10 things and we're gonna delete nine and only do one. But if I'm if I'm dealing with a lot of BAU, if you have the old proverbial intray and it's all sitting at David's desk, we're gonna be sluggish. And someone else, you know, one of my competitors, isn't making that um compromise, and I'm I'm falling behind. So uh I think that's the way, certainly the way I work, and I'm trying to encourage my team to work the same way. It's somewhat unnatural, I think. Certainly in the United Kingdom, maybe a little bit in the United States, and that the way you progress up the hierarchy, you're given more and more responsibility, you make more and more decisions, and then you don't give them away. What you have to do is get the ability to make more decisions and then empower people to take them. Right? I spent a lot of my time doing that. I really, really, really don't want to be making many BAU decisions. Yeah. And I don't think any CEO should be. I mean, I need to be making decisions 12 months, 18 months hence. Yeah, there's there's there's
Why CEOs Make Terrible Personal Decisions
I think it was Einstein that talked about decision-making fatigue. Like, you know, you've got to really give thought to it. You know, which are the decisions you know that you're uniquely positioned to make. And to you, uh what I wrote down there listening to you is, you know, don't be the bottleneck, hire the right team, empower them to make the decisions, and then get out of the way. I mean, you probably said it, said it better than me. And actually, that fatigue bit, I mean, I'd probably say I'm I'm very average at making decisions in my personal life. Because I I don't want to make any. I genuinely don't want to make any, right? Uh over the evening or at the weekend. I sort of think, okay, I've used it up. I've used up all my decision-making ability, you know, Monday to Friday, or in the office. And now, you know, I'm not gonna say I'm easy going because everyone would dispute that, but literally, I don't want to make any monumental decisions. And that's maybe a bad sign that the that the work life has flowed over into personal life because I'd say I'm not good at it in my personal life, and I'd I'd say I'm pretty good at it, or better than average in my professional life. Yeah, well, I I suppose it's I it I I hear you. It's you know, it's what we have energy for, and ultimately, I suppose in our personal life, what do we care about? Like it's it's you know, not giving too much energy to the things that simply don't like that don't matter. But I met Toto Wolfe recently, uh the team principal of Mercedes-Benz, and he was talking about decision-making fatigue. So he wears when he's not on the grid or on the paddock, the same, you know, for any um, I suppose, speaking occasion, like navy stew white shirt. Like same, same out, the same with like Steve Jobs, had you know the same his his own work attire. Is that I don't want to be choosing, should I wear the pink shirt, the blue shirt, or the white killer? I just need to know that that's just one decision. And he has the same food, I think, it it it you know, most days, because again, I don't want to have to make a decision. Like that stuff just doesn't, it doesn't, you know, I want to reserve my energy, every unit of energy, um, for the big things. Fair play to him. I mean, I think we all, I think we all try and do that, but I mean that's a big job, I think, of for anybody running a business, running a department, is to try and minimize the decision. A good way of looking at it, perhaps, is that you maximize the decisions that the group and the company can make. And you do that by minimizing the ones you have to make. I'd love to explore a little bit around um uh your decision to join LMAX because you joined in 2011. Uh, and I'd love to know like what inspired you to join the company? Do you know? Again, non-standard, the non-standard David Mercer story, the best job I I've ever had was interim CEO for LMAX, and that's how it started. So, inspiration,
Try Before You Buy: His Best Career Move
try before you buy. And literally, that happened to me, right? Six months interim CEO. The the the problems weren't my And it was like, what is there to rescue? So I think the inspiration is then beyond that initial six months. The first six months, beautiful, right? A lovely existence, if you like. Um, and knowing almost no responsibility apart from to the shareholders, to the stakeholders who parachuted me in to have a look at this. Yeah. The inspiration came during that six months.
A Ferrari Dressed as a Skoda
And I was a little bit blown away, if I'm honest, by the technology. Simple as that. I mean, they'd got almost everything wrong in terms of day one when I walked in, but the technology was phenomenal. So all I had to do was direct it towards a market which they hadn't thought about. My market I chose was institutional foreign exchange. They had decided to go more retail and more equity. So I tried absolutely turned the turned the boat around. But then I thought, you know, the inspiration, if you like to me was wow, this is everything I've ever wanted. You know, it's I was two years of age. I spent two decades learning my trade, you know, a decade learning capital markets, another decade learning how to be an entrepreneur, how to be a business, and now able to put that all together and almost something that was greenfield, but post-start up. Who knows if I was the guy for the first three years during that startup? I might have been too impulsive, um, I might have been too impatient, who knows? But all of a sudden, all we had to do was I say this perhaps a little bit blithely, but all I had to do was finish the product and direct it at the different at a slightly different market, get the right people in the right boxes, which meant changing some of those people, and ultimately focusing on sales and distribution, which is manner for heaven, from heaven for me at that stage. You know, I didn't have the the three three years of hard yakka getting to a point where I can enter the field of sales. So I think the inspiration came during that first six months, and once I saw what we had under the hood, right? Once I saw this Ferrari that had been dressed as a Skoda, I was like, okay, now I am the person for this job. This job is made for me. This is the greatest fortune I've had in my working life. This is hand in glove. Um this is everything I should be doing, having served a 20-odd year apprenticeship. Uh let's go got let's go get it. So there's the long answer, and the short answer would be the technology which already existed at LMAX. Yeah, I feel like the you know, your DNA, you know, all the components of your DNA were just this this perfect fit. And and you know, I I imagine coming in as the interim CEO, there you're coming with openness and there's there's an objectivity, and clearly you could see things that they couldn't yet see. And your experience knew like, look, this is this is a a Ferrari dressed as a Skoda, but I can see how we can make this, you know, an extraordinary success. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the I've got a very, very smart CTO here, and he refers to those first principles basis. I think I was able to do that in those first six months, and I was able to do it with him. And, you
The Four Questions That Kill Bad Ideas
know, I ask there's four questions, they call them the MERSA questions. Look, they're not necessarily the MERSA questions, they came from various business books and um and startup books over the years, but you know, what is it? What problem does it solve? Why is it different and what's in it for me? And all I really did in this first principles basis in the first in the first six months was go, you know, why are we doing that? You know, why is that different? How are you gonna, you know, one of the things there's a massive project about equities right now. To this day, we don't do equities. 15 years on, we don't do equities. We do indices, but we don't do equities. It's a massive project about equities. I go, guys, what value are you adding? What problem are you solving in the equity market? And they sort of looked at me blankly. And I go, why is it different? And you know, there's a lot of big names out there in terms of equity brokers. I said, Listen, this is back 15 years ago, guys, I can buy you any stock in the world right now for five bucks. What are you what are you adding? And they sort of looked at me. And right now, by the way, imagine having that conversation today, because guess what? They now pay you to buy stocks, right? Basically, you can trade for free. So there and then I said, okay, let's stop that. There's something that you need. And then obviously I sort of looked, then I was able to say, okay, who knows foreign exchange? Not many people did. And I said, okay, well, this is the problem in this market. This is why that's we can be different, and this is what's in it for you, this is what's in it for your clients, this is what's in it for our shareholders and our stakeholders. So, yeah, again, I back back to where we started with that, George. We, you know, try before you buy, really good opportunity, and I'd almost recommend it to anyone to come in and have like six months to look around, and also maybe to have that honesty. Because I had to report back to shareholders, and it was more or less, is there anything to save? And I sort of said, Well, yes, but no. Like most startups, not what you initially intended, but let's pivot, let's use those, you know, trendy phrases, let's pivot. I don't think I used that phrase at the time, right? Let's let's change, let's finish the product in this way and let's go after this market and let's change these people. So, you know, really, really good opportunity. I think maybe more people should do it that way. I do think also, I mean, it was like a chip on my shoulder, maybe initially, people talk about founders. By the way, there's people like you know, Musk aren't really founders, they go and buy other companies. And um, I looked at LMAX and I'm very grateful for everyone that was here before me and what they've built from a tech perspective. And if you like, I should have re-founded it. And as I go back to, am I the guy to create that startup? Would I have had the vision without the core around it, the core tech? So, and perhaps when I when I look at my career and um how I progressed even from the early days in banking, it was maybe not designing the code, but understanding the power of that technology, and especially as we as we embrace all new technologies and we have done over the last 20, 30 years, and it's understanding the power um that the new technologies have and the change they're gonna make in your in your given market, in capital markets and in society as a whole. So uh yeah, uh I'll probably come down to always and say a little bit of luck, fortunate in timing, but um I really enjoyed that first six months, and I think from then on, I was fully committed. The first six months was a um dip around, have a look, do a job for a set of shareholders. Since then, um I haven't worked a day in my life, if I'm honest with you. I've been fully committed and enthusiastic in every single second. Oh god, there's so much there that I but the you know, the passion and enthusiasm is clear. And I think, you know, when you're you're giving uh when investing so much of your time and energy, like you have to love what you do. There has to always be this passion and enthusiasm. And the questions you asked about, you know, what is it, what problem does it solve, how's it different? I think when we actually, you know, take time to pause to ask ourselves, you know, those questions. There could be other first principle questions, it really can change the trajectory. And that's not time out, that's time invested, you know, creating that space to make sure you're you know you're on the right pathway. Yeah. I mean, everyone walks around now asking the same thing from small decisions, small projects to big projects. It's like have to be able to have to be able to answer. There's so basic. I think it covers everything in in business, if I'm honest with you. And sometimes a lot of people we try and avoid it. There's a lot of Me Too products in the market. Somebody said to me, actually, a customer of mine said that everything's been invented, David. Everything in capital markets has been invented. To a certain extent, that's true, but you know, I think with block the the advent of blockchain, potentially with AI, sort of more machine learning, we can evolve in a different way. It's you know, look, the four questions that I apply can be applied to everything, and it's important. I think the key bit in this is the third one. Why is it different? We must be different, right? The solution must be different. There's a lot of me too products out there, and if all you ever do is build me too, you're gonna fail, right? You're gonna lose because you know you're not the fur, you're not the first mover for a start, and then if you're the second mover, that can be okay. Okay, but what problem are you solving with the first mover? Is it different? Is it better? And if it's just cheaper, that's not gonna be good enough. And I see that a lot, and it's a real challenge, right? Because you think to a certain extent, everything in capital markets has been invented, right? Customer of mine said that to me. It's been invented. What how what can be different now? I think with modern technology, there's so much tweaking, there's so much, there's so much differentiation. You know, go back to a previous story we talked about there. I mean, people trading equities for free. When I first traded equities, cost me, I don't know, 20 basis points, 30 basis points. Now it's free. Yeah. So we are tweaking around the edges, but I think you've got to go back and ask those four questions. What is it? Should be easy, what problem does it solve? Why is it different? And what's in it for me, you, whoever that stakeholder is? Yeah. And I think you can apply that to every bit of business. And I do it to myself sometimes because we get very excited. AI's classic for that, Georgie. We get very excited by AI and machine learning. Oh, look at this. Look how good this is. Look what chat GPT. And I was like, okay, that's wonderful. Has that helped me, us, my customers? I look a lot at AI right now, and I don't get me wrong, I think it's great for the world, but has it made us more efficient, us at LMAX more efficient, not necessarily just yet? Has it made us more productive? Hard to judge? Has it made us more money? No. Okay. Now, it's gonna help us with the underlying pillars. You know, perhaps 80% of code, or the first 80% of code can now be created, the building blocks can be created by it. But I'm still gonna need the smarts for the last 20%. And it's forcing us every single time to ask the questions why are we doing it? Back to something we talked about earlier, the prioritization of time. Right? Why a lot of companies fail, and probably why I I fail, we've failed at times, is we try and do too much, try and do too many things. Or it hasn't been clear from day one that we've answered the question, that we've solved the problem, right? That we've created a differentiator. So now it's one of the things I'm constantly working on to make sure that we understand that before we take the first step into a new market or a new product. Yeah, it's it's and and when you ask, you know, answer those questions honestly, you know, there's a and hold, you know, each of yourself to you know a standard of like, right, we need to really, you know, make sure we get clarity around this. To your point, it really then informs where do you spend the time and effort and the resources. Um and yeah, I just think it's I think not people are often so busy in the doing and the go, go, go that the it there can be an absence of like, let's just take a pause, let's strategize, let's really give thought to how does this serve our stakeholders, how does this serve us? Um so I think there's such, I feel we need to memorialise those MERSA questions. They're good ones. And you you said there about, you know, why do you think some companies fail, or what why do some teams fail? Like, what do you see? You know, where do people trip themselves up? It's a very wide question, George. But I think look, you've got to have the discipline, understanding where you fit in. I think probably they try and do too much, or they haven't got that clarity at the outset. Now, two bits to that actually. Clarity at the outset, and then the ability to transition. I mean, I've done it a lot. By the way, people always ask me when I have town halls here, you know, how did you foresee this? Have you got things wrong? Gee,
The CEO Who Admits He Gets Things WRONG
I've got a bunch of things wrong here. You know, old-fashioned trader once said to me, I make 10 trades, I get three bang wrong, but I cut them early. I get three to four fair to middling, right? Whatever, and then I've got to try and maximize the three that I get right. It's a bit like that in business. I think sometimes people get almost too emotional, emotionally attached to the idea they had at the outset. Before you go into it, let's have clarity. What are we doing? Okay, fully commit to it. And then don't be afraid to close it, end it, or change it. Yeah. You know, and what I another thing I've said here, and again, this isn't immersarism, but it's like, look, we're all trying to succeed quickly. All right, that's our goal. I don't think I've ever succeeded quickly, by the way. L Max Digital, maybe the quickest we ever did it was a so we broke even within six months. That's probably the quickest. Every other exchange has taken years to build it. So let's try and succeed quickly. Succeeding slowly is okay. It can be harsh and bothersome, and you might run out of oxygen, right? Cash on the way. But succeeding slowly is okay. Failing quickly is also okay, right? Failing slowly, unforgivable. Yeah, it cannot happen. So it's that. So
Why Most Companies Fail Too SLOWLY
why do people fail? It's probably, I think a lot of it is they fail too slowly. Get it wrong, move on. Right? Don't keep it's a bit like back to the trading analogy, is don't just hang on to something because you thought it was right six months ago. The market's changed, the world's changed. Right? Your view on gold, I promise you, you your view on gold a year ago is different to your view on gold today. Don't hang on to it. So I think I think I'm good at that. I think we're getting better at it. Um, but still, I could, if I look around the business, there's a few things I could have cut earlier, a few pivots we could have done earlier. And again, that would be my advice to younger people or younger startups is you know, yes, have the clarity, yes, have the commitment, but make sure you're seeing the signs of life, make sure you're seeing those green shoots, make sure you're asking yourself the DMQs, if you like, every single, every single day, and if it's not what you thought, don't be afraid to change it. Right? As I say, just look at just look at LMAX. I mean, you could write the book on it and say what it's set out to be is absolutely not what it is today. And did I know when um we bought the company in 2013? Did I know then that I was going to be launching LMAX digital in 2018? Of course not. But uh, and by the way, did blockchains exist? Of course they did. Did Bitcoin exist? Of course it did. Yeah, right? So hold on, David, you weren't that pressure? Absolutely not. But by 2017, four years later, I was like, hey, this could be a big part of our future, right? Likewise, all the you know, the acquisitions we've we've made recently, I'm constantly, constantly transforming, pivoting, making decisions, answering my my own my four questions. And by the way, my answer to the four questions would be different today than they were in 2013 and 18 and 21, right? Absolutely. So that is um, you
Evolve or Die: LMAX's Brutal Pivot Strategy
know, evolve or die effectively, and that's why you've got to keep testing yourself and testing your testing your team with um those key areas of focus. Oh god, there's so many, so many gems that are coming out of this. Uh you know, one of the things you shared about, you know, where people can fail trying to do too much. And my own coach said to me recently, overwhelm comes from lack of pruning and prioritization. And and I was like, it's so you know, it's so true. It's like, what do you need to let go? But equally, where do you make, you know, where do you need to prioritize? You know, failing slowly is unforgivable. You know, failing is okay because you're pivoting, you're adapting. And you said, yeah, you know, close, end, or change. Like you get to choose, but like make a decision and make the right decision and and keep testing yourself. Um, and this certainly comes up with a lot of the entrepreneurs I work with that that, you know, they are rigorous at testing themselves. And that's probably one of the reasons that you and them have been so incredibly successful, because it's such a discipline and it's so deliberate to make sure you're focusing on the right things and you're thinking ahead, like where will the markets be two, five, ten years from now? Like, what do I need to be thinking about? Yeah, I mean that's that's key. And that's what drives, I think that's what drives us all. It's why I'm still I love I love working. I told you, I haven't worked a day in my life. Um, certainly since I came here, right? I love it. But what I love is that challenge, right? What's next? And it's that evolution. Um, you know, if it was easy, if it was just BAU, probably as I say, as I said to you previously, there's better, there's better people for that BAU job than me. But the beauty and the reason I I think I found my niche in capital markets, and I was fortunate to find my niche, is that my goodness, it's constantly evolving. Um the technology, the practitioners, the market itself, the economy behind it. I mean, just look at what we've all endured in the last sort of five years, even, right? From COVID, from people not being able to move uh oil and gold and all of those effects. You know, people paying you to buy um oil. I mean, that really happens. I mean, think about that, scratch your head. Oh my
When Negative Oil Prices Broke Every Exchange
God, what how many exchanges in the world could deal with a negative price? Why the hell would you code anything for a negative price? And we sort of solve that around the table. I would just add 100 to the price, for example. But it's like, wow, having to come with solutions all the time. And um, what was right in 2021 almost certainly won't be right in 2025. Right? And I think that's what keeps us interested and keeps us uh and keeps us asking those questions and particularly the third question, trying to find solutions that are different. Yeah. And and and and to your point, I think, you know, it's and I really hear you about that love of challenge, that love of evolution, that kind of iteration. You know, we talked about um companies that fail, you know, when we can make mistakes. And Rich Hand, the CEO of Jeffries, I recently read a blog where he'd written, you know, the a hundred lessons no one told him when he he became a CEO. Um, and I'm curious, you know, you were very experienced when you stepped into that, you know, had a couple of decades under your under your belt before you became interim CEO. What are what are three things you wish you'd known before taking on that role? I said Alrich, quite recently actually, um inspiring guy. So I must read his hundred lessons. I will send it to you. He's got several. He's got ones that he'd wish he'd known you know to his children when they graduated, one post-college. Insightful, I'll send you all. Yeah, I think um
Nobody Warns You: It's THAT Lonely at the Top
I three would be Adamski loneliness as the killer, right? It's a lonely job. So what did I expect? Not quite sure, actually, but you're on your own. Ultimately, you're on your own. And yes, you're gonna have some friends, you're gonna have some colleagues, but um around the place that are that are helpful, and I'm very fortunate I do, but there are some decisions you must make on your own, and there's some decisions that affect them. Um and there's nowhere really else to go. You know, you asked a question earlier. Probably two gentlemen on my board have been there since the outset, so they're probably the only guys that would ease that loneliness. Um I don't be wrong, you know, it's not I'm it's not a cry for help at all because you wanted to be a CEO, you wanted to run the show. Perhaps I should have expected it or been more aware of it. The second one would be
It Never Stops. Ever.
it is constant. Don't think for one minute that you get a day off. Don't think for one minute that you get to have a holiday. But I think back, I don't know, when we when we started work, George, you know, we couldn't work. You left work on Friday at whatever, six PM. You couldn't work anymore. Yeah, no blackberries. This is pre internet. How did you work? You couldn't time off. Yeah, which I which I said no. Did I was one of the only people in the office? Yeah, and me too sometimes because when I was doing risk reports and working in the middle office, that was the only way to work was to get in. And you know, sometimes you pine for those days again. The other beauty, the other beauty of capital markets, foreign exchange, was that at 10 pm on a Friday night in the UK, that is, markets were shut. You had 48 hours off. I used to, you know, look at lawyers and accountants and feel some sympathy for them because I had 48 hours when nothing could happen. Guess what? We're then gonna evolve them digital and crypto markets 2018, which are never off. So I think it's constant. So you have to love it. You really have to love it because you can't decide when to turn it on, when to turn it off. You can't decide when you're gonna have the best idea, right? Or the worst idea, some people might say, but it's like you're something might just come to you and it might be, you know, three in the afternoon on a Sunday. Also, because of the advent of, as you say, smartphones, laptops always on markets. You know, I remember one of their first holidays, a member of staff I didn't know particularly well wrote me this highly critical email. And you know, when on in in old school terms, probably be about sheet and a half of A4. Very hard to shape that on a holiday. Now, in our earlier lives, uh, Georgie, I wouldn't have seen it. I would have enjoyed my holiday. So, look, I think it's constant. Um, so again, back to things we've we've mentioned, you have to love it, you have to, you have to enjoy it. Um because it is 24-7. Forget the hours you're in the office or when people see you, it is constant. Embrace that constant nature. Maybe I'm fortunate, maybe you need to be a certain type of character. I love to be thinking at all hours of the day. Um, I don't like to waste time. So if I'm sitting around at 8 a.m. on a Saturday, I'm quite happy to be thinking about work. If you don't want to be doing that, then it's not the job for you. So I guess lonely, constant, probably the last thing is people. And perhaps don't be disappointed by people. You know, that's a lesson in life, maybe a lesson in business, but people is a large part of what you do. You probably haven't been trained for it. You know, Georgie, a lot of what you do will be training people for this and coaching people for this. But I mean,
People WILL Disappoint You. Plan for It.
you're an amateur psychologist, right? Yeah, you're a mother, you're a father, you're a grandfather at times, right? You're you're a coach, you're a you're a mentor, you're a uh a shoulder to to cry on, you're a whipping, um, you're a whipping boy. You know, that's just uh just the way it is, and all roads lead to you. And sometimes, you see this a lot in sport, but I think it's equally true in business. Sometimes you invest so much into certain people, and that may not be rewarded, right? Or it may be forgotten, and you have to remember it's just people. So when I start, when I start out and I say don't be disappointed by people, that makes it easier. Because generally they will, and generally in business, I think it's okay, right? Everyone has to look after themselves and their families. You know,
Loyalty Is for Family and Dogs
loyalty is for your family and for your dogs, and maybe it doesn't exist in business, right? So that would be that would be my my top three. It was interesting when you said don't be disappointed by people. When I was um listening to Toto Wolf recently, um he shared, you know, someone asked him in the the the uh talk I was at about Lewis Hamilton leaving Mercedes-Benz. And that was a complete surprise to him. And he's like, you know what, like don't be disappointed. Like he's made a decision Lewis has made the decision that the right decision for him, and and actually, you know, they're still good friends. Um, but he could have easily been like, you know, seen him as a traitor, and you know, it he could have he could have had a real emotional reaction to it, but um, and I'm sure he did in the moment, but it's like, no, let's be rational human beings. Um, so yeah, I love that. Loyalty is for your family and dogs. I think it is because look, you and I probably did it back in the day in trading floors in banks. And when you're when you're a young person on the way up, it gives so much to this company. I mean, you almost wish you'd learnt the lesson. You give so much, and you think that company, that faceless company, knows you. It doesn't, you're just a number, right? And you're so far down, and ultimately, when they make changes or when they make cuts, um, you're just a number there. So there's no loyalty. That brand doesn't have loyalty to you, right? On the shop floor. So maybe there's a little bit of cynicism that as you progress in business, like okay, I need to be less loyal in a way, still committed, still work hard, but understand that loyalty isn't gonna happen in business or in capital markets. Maybe it can happen at the top echelons, right? Maybe it can happen. I hope I have it within um the top levels of LMAX. And certainly, if you look at the the length of time that my executive committee have been here, you would show that loyalty works both ways. But when you start out in business, and certainly when you start out you know as part of the rank and file, it's almost non-existent. And the way I get over that when I tell young people when they join us is look, you're not all gonna succeed in the same company, right? And some of our jobs is that it's two-way street. I train you, you learn, you enjoy it, you give back. At some stage, you'll be bigger and better than the job you're doing. And sometimes the next job for you is gonna be outside, and that's okay. Yeah, don't feel disloyal. That's okay. You know, I've trained you, I've done my bit, and you've given me more than enough back. Yeah, and then you go on and that you go on and you grow and you and you breathe. But sometimes people get a little bit um attached to the position and to that company, especially when you look at, you know, go to Canary Wolf or go to the city of London, and you imagine how many thousands of people work for some of those companies. And we're a bit unrealistic if we expect that loyalty. And certainly as a boss, I mean, I think if you start off with that premise, don't be disappointed by people, you'll be much better placed. Yeah. I feel like what you said there, there's a fair trade. You train someone that they give back, and then if they move, well, again, there's an equal trade there. There's there's a symmetrical trade. 100%. You talked about the loneliness piece, and that comes up with every leader of work with the loneliness of the seat, because there's a difference between being alone and feeling alone. You know, you're surrounded by an exco-team, you're you know, there's family, there's friends, but very few people really get it. And there's very few places where you can kind of release the pressure back. So I that loneliness, um, and and you mentioned about the constantness. You know, when I started in my career, you know, there's no internet words, you know, we we I think I craved more information and more connection, and now it's the opposite, it's it's craving that disconnection at times because it is that is that constantness. And and and I think you made a really valuable point about leaders today. There's many things you don't have a playbook for uh or been trained for, you know, to be an amateur psychologist, to you know, there are so many hats that you are asked uh or that it's you know the role requires you to wear. Um and people are complex, let's be clear. So there are so many hats that you have to put on, and uh which is all additive to your to to to the core responsibility of being a CEO. 100%. And you know, I think one of the things, no nine self, you mentioned earlier, jobs like this are not for everyone. And I'm very lucky, I've got some people in this organization um who don't want to be managers, who would never aspire to be CEO, and then you've got other people who aspire to be a CEO and you go, are you sure you want to do that? Do you know what it means? Right? Because it's not for everyone in the sub. You
Be Careful What You Wish For: The CEO Trap
have to have the height of a rhino because if you take it too much to heart what people are saying or doing, um then you mightn't be able to succeed. So I think everyone's gotta know, but at times it can be a bit dull, right? Sometimes it's more fun to be out there. You haven't got many friends, back to the loneliness part, and it's more fun to be out there with the crew, right? And coming up with ideas and maybe who knows, maybe um sniping about um how tough the boss has been, or what a bad week it's been, or what a bad year, and what a bad decision he or he or she has made. But um, it's not for everyone. But I'm I'm lucky that people in this organization, some people in this organization say, now I'm happy doing this. And technology's brilliant for that, actually. You have some some of, and I'll go back to our former lives as well. Some of the best software developers, and it's a very important part of what we do here. Technology is about a third of my company. Um, some of the best software developers are just the artists. They love being the artist, they love being the problem solver, they do not want to manage people. And sometimes it freaks them out. Like the it goes the other way, it's detrimental. Well done, you've done really well, we're gonna pay you more money, now you're gonna manage this team of six, and suddenly their performance declines. Because they're not cut out for it, they don't want to do it. And just talking about the former life, you know,
Best Trader Does NOT Make Best Boss
just because you were the best accountant doesn't mean you're the best partner of that accounting firm. Just because you're the best trader doesn't mean you're the best head of trader. Yeah, and likewise, you know, in this position, just because you were a good employee may not mean you're the best employer. So you really have to look all around it.
Make Yourself Redundant. On Purpose.
I would encourage people to probably analyze themselves a little bit before they get into it. Probably do a bit of training be and be careful what you wish for. Um it isn't for everyone, and I've got some really successful guys here who would never aspire to this position. I have some as well who would aspire to the position, by the way. Um and I encourage them, you know. What I tell almost what I tell everyone, by the way, make yourself redundant. I'm more than happy, right? If someone says, you know, I want to come up. I love it when someone says I want your job, and I'm like, great, now, okay, let's train you up and make sure you understand how to deal with these things. Yeah. I I remember a client saying to me that um they talked about the step up into being a CEO. They said often jobs are like step changers. He's like, this was a staircase change. Like it was and um and to your point, he said he really had to give a lot of thought before he accepted uh because there is, you know, there's public scrutiny, there's there's a lot of responsibility that comes with the seat. And I and I and I think it's we you've got to go in, you know, with eyes wide open in terms of what the expectations are of you and also enrolling people around you, knowing that it is 24-7, it is constant, it is lonely, um, making sure you have people around you. I could talk to you for hours. I mean, you've got so many one-liners here. I'm so looking forward to writing this up because that it's very it's very, very powerful. Um, look, we talked earlier in our conversation about the pace of change in today's world. And I think we can agree it's unrelenting. And, you know, what we've seen in the last five years is typically what we'd see over decades. And, you know, there's a requirement um not just for leaders but for people today to really adapt to that, you know, that that pace of change. You know, when you had a conversation with your graduates, you mentioned last week, you know, what advice would you give people around how to deal with that pace of change? So you kind of you you get ahead of it rather than you know lagging behind. I mean, I look, I think read a lot. I don't read enough, but I you know, if and when I ever you know take holidays, and I do, read a lot about new things. But sometimes you have to be interested in it, right? So read or take snippets, you know. Look, if you're TikTok generation, if you like watching uh videos, okay, watch videos, try and learn from people that inspire you. And I've learned from a bunch of people that inspire me, but likewise, I can't sit down and just read an autobiography or a biography of someone that hasn't inspired me in advance. That's just it. So you've got to work out what it is for you. Um AI, machine learning, robotics, quantum computing, work out what's interesting for you and then learn all about it
Read or Watch: How to Stay Ahead
in whichever way suits you. So then it's like, okay, Dave, it's all great. Just learn stuff. I'm not very good at just learning stuff, right? You can ask, you can go back to my academics if you like. Just learning stuff for the sake of learning stuff. I'm like, how does that help me? What's the what's the upside there? So what I've learned is okay, how can I apply that at LMAX or to my life? Can it make my life better? Can it make LMAX better? So for me, I'm very practical in terms of practical learning, I mean, rather than um putting to putting together flatbacks because I'm definitely not practical at that. Um so practical learning for me is let's try it, let's do it. I mean, we just launched something you know a couple of weeks ago, and we started working on it three years ago around decentralized finance and DeFi, and I must confess, I didn't really know what DeFi was. Um we just launched an exchange which um embraces decentralized finance now, right? We call it OmniAr Exchange. Three years we've been working on it. So we learned, I learned more and more about DeFi. I learned more and more about how you can trade from a decentralized wallet. All of my life I've been centralized. Send your money to bank A, send your money to broker B, trade the markets through market access, they provide you. Oh no, this one, start with your own wallet, MetaMask or something else, other wallets are available, trade into the marketplace onto any exchange in any product, and it's tokenized walls. So I was like, wow. So
DeFi, Wallets and Learning by Doing
I learnt by doing. And I think if we had, you know, obviously if we had longer into that, I could explain this exchange to anyone in the markets with reference to traditional finance, traditional exchanges, and centralized exchanges. Or I could explain to the younger generation in a way that they understand. So it's interesting when you talk to people who talk about DeFi versus TradFi and they look at crypto markets and they've only learnt in crypto markets. You'll say this, you'll say things to them. Uh, do you understand? They'll say no. Well, no idea what you're talking about. Oh well, you do, because you're doing swaps on sushi swap, you know, Uniswap, Aave, whatever it is. You know all this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that. Okay, do you understand yield? No. Well, what are you doing over here? Oh, I'm doing I'm farming. Okay, okay. So it's just jargon, right? Yeah. So um, so I would say, you know, the question was how do you keep up with the pace of change? I probably, at some stage, I won't, and I don't, and I'm lucky enough I've got younger, younger teams here, but certainly DeFi, I think I'm hopefully ahead of the curve, or I'm certainly surfing that wave because of younger people that brought it to me. AI personally I'm probably behind the wave because I haven't been able to see the practical example that clearly. That doesn't suit my learning style. Thankfully, it does suit my technologists because they they use it every single day. And I'm not a frivolous type of guy in that just using chat GPT and creating a meme of myself speaking a different language doesn't really entertain me or educate me, so I don't do it. So I think um what I would encourage everyone to do is just engage in it. Also, uh, you know, the empowerment of me, teams around me throughout my career was harnessing modern tech. And look, that modern tech back in the 90s was spreadsheets, right? And handling big data. It's now things like Python and other ways of engineering data. Um, so I tell the youngsters, you know, get good at this. To be honest, I I surfed my way through um investment banking and went from middle office to front office on the trading desk purely because I knew how to operate a spreadsheet better than everyone else. And I knew how to how to handle data quicker and better than everyone else. Because I was at the forefront. So I encouraged them to do the same. Because, you know, and now by the way, everyone out there is way better than me at spreadsheets, and actually they've moved on. That's the point. They've moved on because spreadsheets have limitations, they've moved into other ways of handling data. So it's it's um read, learn, however, you best learn, but then I'd say engage. Don't make it all theory, make it practical, right? Why is it better for you? Why is it better for David? Why is it better for L Max? And bingo, uh, I think you'll very quickly find that you are in the top 1% of people who um understand the power of this technology. Yeah, it's not that this is the same, but there's I feel there's a correlation. I remember reading a quote by Stephen Bartlett, and he said, You can read as many books as you like, but if you can't read yourself, you'll never learn a thing. And it it it it kind of speaks to the fact we can read, we can listen, but actually it's that active engagement that that's the piece that's that's so critical. There is just theory. Um you you mentioned there, you know, there were there were a number of people who've inspired you. You know, who from an entrepreneur perspective or a leader in the market perspective um is someone that you've not aspired to be, but it's just it's been an inspiration. So many, so many. But um I I think little bits from all of them. Yeah.
Steve Jobs Was a Genius and a Fruitcake
Look, you know, I loved Steve Jobs, but he was a fruitcake, right? But I loved his attention, detail, right? Sometimes the madness of it. But by the way, I would be probably fully rounded human being and leader. I'd probably be more complimentary of Tim Cook. Unbelievable job that man's done, right? Unbelievable positioning he's taken on himself personally, right? And still lead this company to new heights. So fully rounded human being, fully rounded leader, um, brave human, amazing, right? Really amazing. But the inspiration for me and what made me probably an Apple fanboy was probably Steve Jobs. Um and then, you know, I read about um Branson, I read up, read a lot about him, Musk a little bit, going back outside of sort of business, you know. I love the I love the Buffett approach, but I'll be honest, you know, I've bought the Buffett and and manga books about how to invest. Doesn't really do it for me, but I like their simplicity, right? I like the newsletter they write, I like the simplicity of it. So I take little bits from all of them. Um but I also think as much sometimes, if I'm honest with you, outside of business, you know, read a lot about US civil rights back in the day, um, really enjoyed that part of um sort of history and politics. So, you know, Martin Luther King um read a lot about him, inspired by him greatly. Um, Nelson Mandela, of course, you know, The Long Walk to Freedom, I'd say, is one of my favorite books. Um probably changed my outlook on life. The Gandhis of the world. Look, Muhammad Ali, uh, again, again, more for the civil rights, but rather than his um rather than his sporting prowess, which was undoubted. So I put all that together. I try and learn, I try and learn from all of them. I think the best business book, two great business books of anyone's out there, um, apart from the ones you've written, of course, Georgie, um, would be um best novel business book, film night, shoe dog. I've got that one, the Nike, yeah. Unbelievable, unbelievable book. And then From Good to Great. Yeah, I've got that one as well. That's it. The one that another one I'd recommend if you like is uh Legacy by uh James Kerr, and it's about the read it. Have you did you that's not in your top? Okay, is that not in your top? That's not on the top. Definitely, but I think I think probably because I've read them all, 100% it would be. I tell you what, sometimes I stop with the sporting analogies because I love sport. I've got a third of the company technologists. Sport doesn't always rock their boat. So I tried, I could talk to you all day long and try to motivate people all day long with sporting analogies. It doesn't work for everyone. And actually, once I brought some gold medalists in here and we talked, I just walked down the room and it just wasn't hitting. Yeah. So sometimes I try and move away. That book, Legacy, great for me. But I discovered I wasn't that able to use it. And as well, like one of my brightest minds here, again, I want embarrassing, just said, No, I just never got sport. You look at this, you know, lives in the United Kingdom, British bloke, and says, Yeah, just never got it, never got football. And I'm like, okay, and never watched the game in my life. And you just go, okay. And I've got all these great analogies, sporting analogies, these aspiring stories of rugby players, and I just it falls on deaf ears a lot. So I try and look for other inspirations, but yeah, um, I think I'm always trying to learn more, and I love reading about people, and I love, you know, judging aside, I'm you know, I'm reading all of your books, but what I I never ever ever drink the Kool-Aid and fully buy into one human being. What I've learnt, and I know this about myself, um, and I know that about all these much greater humans that I read about, they're all flawed. Right?
They're ALL Flawed. That's the Point.
Perfectly imperfect. Correct. I love it, and I love seeing the flaws, and you go, thank goodness. Because initially, when you start reading them, you're so inspired, you sort of think they must be perfect, and they're gonna show you how inadequate you are. And of course, you know you're inadequate, but when they recognize those inadequacies as well, and their weaknesses and their failures, it's like it's almost heartening and drives you on to make yourself a better human. Yeah. Do you know what's interesting with the the stratospheric CEOs, the founder CEOs I I profiled there, what really struck me um was the level of self-awareness and self-insight. And that comes from self-reflection. It comes from being open to people having truth tellers in your tribe, uh, knowing your blind spots. But and and what's interesting, they said, you know, with the uh we talked about success, and you know, the success really celebrated, it's the next thing, you know, straight on to the next. But they remember every failure, every failure, like that, you know, that that's the stuff that's attached to the memory because you know, you want to be sure that that never happens again. And I always assume that you know that success would be these big milestone moments. And I remember once at least, well, we we we all had a glass of champagne, you know, when they or something, a glass of something when that they made a big acquisition, but then it's it's the next thing, it's like there's another summit um to climb, and it's never dwelling on the success for too long. And my younger son's got a rugby podcast, and uh he when he interviewed Martin Johnson, who was the obviously captain of England, he said, Look, I never I never dwell when things go really well, and equally I never dwell too much when things, you know, I take things both sides with a pinch of salt, because I don't want to never get too complacent, but equally you can reflect on when things don't go well, but don't get stuck in the emotion of it. Yeah, it's a bit in a way, it's a bit sad, right? Um, but certainly they're right, and that's that's where I am. You know, don't you know perhaps you don't enjoy the highs enough. Yeah. Maybe you have to wait. What is the high? Like someone said to me, No, when are you done? When are you finished? I'll never finish.
When Will You Win? He'll Never Finish.
I'll never finish. And in many ways, maybe I'll never succeed in my mind. Because what's succeeding? You know, when I win, when will I win? How do I win? Right? At least you know like Martin Johnson, you know, he won, they had one goal, they won that, but guess what? Very quickly, he'll go and lose a he'll go and lose a match or lose the next competition. So I trying hard to do better at uh enjoying the successes and getting my team to enjoy it. Simple things, you know, go for a beer, have a pizza day when you hit new records, right? So enjoy it, because there's enough times where we don't enjoy it when we have bad days. And likewise, again, back to that. Don't dwell too much on the failures, but I go back to the preparation for success and failure. Prepare for both and remember that succeed quickly, fail quickly. There's not much difference between the two. Fail quickly, you can almost celebrate. Right? But but and but making sure you make that decision so that you don't go into the unforgivable slow fail. Um, but yeah, like I said, it's maybe part of all of us is that constant drive to get better, to maybe chase the unachievable. Um,
Stop Chasing. Start Celebrating.
I'm trying to get better for me, I'm trying to get better for my team at enjoying the high spots. Um, but let's see, maybe maybe we'll all go to our graves um never having done that properly. Well, it's you you said right at the beginning of our conversation, talking about why you didn't go to university marking time, and I suppose it's where you can like mark the milestones because it's such a great motivational opportunity. And I think there's so much noise in the world. Well, there's something to celebrate. I think let's bask in the uh bask in the celebration. Well, look, we've just used the word dwelling. I'm going to be dwelling on many of these insights that you shared. Um thank you for being so candid and um so giving of your uh your leadership lessons. I have written like pages of notes. So for me, I love learning. I love learning from inspiring people. So this has been just it's such a joy of a conversation. So thank you so much, David. Great. Thank you for your time. I've enjoyed it. If you want to see the full episode, please do look at Apple and Spotify under Stratospheric Leaders or go to YouTube where it'll be under Georgie Dickens. I hope you enjoy the full episode. There are so many great sound bites shared.
